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Embrace the No: How Seeking Rejection Can Amplify Your Brand

Today’s episode of the podcast is an interview with Liz Mosley, where we are talking all about the challenge she set herself to receive 100 rejections in her business, what she learned and why embracing rejection is important for your brand!

Liz Mosley is a graphic designer with over 15 years experience and now specialises in creating creative branding and animated GIFS for small business owners. She also hosts a podcast called Building Your Brand and teaches courses showing people how to create their own branding and GIFS if they don’t have the budget to outsource it.

 

KEY TAKEAWAYS COVERED IN THE PODCAST

  1. Overcoming embarrassment and shame in personal and professional growth
  2. The concept of “failing forward” and how it can help you learn from your mistakes and move forward quickly
  3. Practical tips on how to pitch to be a guest on a podcast and what you need to consider

 

LINKS TO RESOURCES MENTIONED IN TODAY’S EPISODE

Connect with Liz on Instagram

Download Liz's Rejection Challenge Trello Template

Listen to Liz's podcast ‘Building Your Brand'

Check out Liz's website

Connect with Teresa on Instagram, LinkedIn or Facebook

 

Transcript

Teresa: Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Your Dream Business Podcast. How are you doing? So we are back with another interview. I don't know if I'm going to like bring back some solo ones. I will at some point. I just go with the flow and see how I feel. But at the moment, I'm really enjoying the interviews and I'm loving having some of these people on, which is awesome.

So today I have the very lovely Liz Mosley, who is a graphic designer with 15 years experience, and she now specializes in creating creative brands and animated GIFs for small business owners. She's also the host of a podcast called Building Your Brand and teaches courses, showing people how to create their own branding and GIFs.

It's a, there's an interesting story cause I was on her podcast, but we'll get to that later. Liz, welcome to the podcast.

Liz: Thanks for having me. It's nice to be here.

Teresa: My pleasure. So let's just start with the, I was on your podcast and you asked me to do something very unique on your podcast. Didn't you?

Liz: I know I really loved it and it was such a popular, popular episode, but yeah, I asked you to basically come on my podcast and coach me, which I think we were both a bit scared about cause you were scared that you would. You would coach me and everyone would be like, what's she even doing? And then I was scared that I, I have like a tendency to overshare.

So I was scared that I treated like a therapy session and go a bit too far with what I was sharing.

Teresa: Never want to put the episode out.

Liz: I never want to put it out, but it, I, you know, it worked really well. And I think I had so many messages from people saying that they like really resonated with it because it was a more like personal, vulnerable, this is what I worry about.

And, you know, as usual, it was the sort of thing that everybody else worries about as well.

Teresa: Yeah. There's, you know, and the truth is, I don't think no matter what stage you're at in business or where you are, and even the people you look up to or the people that you aspire to be like, they're still dealing with the same sorts of things, maybe on a different scale, maybe with a different topic, but it all kind of boils down to something similar.

But it was, it was such a good episode, but it was a very nerve wracking one to go into because to just jump straight into a coaching call and like, coach someone. Like, yeah, because some, I guess some coaches or sometimes that I coach, I feel like I get to the end and I'm like, I'm not entirely sure what I've done here, if I've done anything, but you just don't know.

Liz: Well, and that's the thing is because you didn't know what I was, I mean, you had an idea of the sort of thing I was going to talk to, but you didn't know what I was going to bring to the table. And I think for coaching to work really well, that there is that dynamic where. The person receiving the coaching has to be open to being coached.

So it could have, it could definitely have gone horribly wrong. Yeah. But thankfully I did feel fairly confident because we have spoken before and I feel like we have the sort of rapport where actually like. we speak to each other really easily. You know, it's not like it was ever going to be a stunted or awkward conversation.

So I think it, yeah, it worked well.

Teresa: It was, it was really, really good. But, and, and you're so right with the, I think the emphasis is often put on the coach, which is rightly so because obviously you're paying them and, and, you know, if you're working with a coach, your expectation of them is high or should be high.

However, you're entirely right. If the person coming to be coached isn't willing to be coached, then it's a dead end. Like there's nothing the coach can do. I had to remind myself of this recently when I started working with someone new and I actually got a new know Biz Paul. I actually got on a call with Biz Paul and I was moaning about something to do with work and saying something was difficult.

And he's like, have you spoken to your coach about this? I was like, no. And he was like, isn't that their job? I realized that I wasn't being very vulnerable. And that is one of my problems is that I have this, you know, This show, not show that I put on, it's me, but there's this element of, I can't let my guard down because I'm the one who leads the conversations.

I'm the one. And interestingly enough, even as I was interviewing other coaches, because I have one coach that I've worked with for years and I love and she's amazing, but I needed something slightly different. From what she did and I was interviewing other coaches and I realized that they were getting on a call and I was taking the whole call.

Like I was leading it. I was driving it. I was the one filling the gaps. I was the one asking the questions. And I was like, this isn't what it should be. Like, you know, I've got to, but that was partly my fault. Partly their fault. Cause it was like, I've got to step back and go, okay, am I willing to be coached?

And am I willing to get vulnerable? And I have done now, I've got more vulnerable now, which is good, but it is very much a two way street. So, yeah.

Liz: I think the key thing though, is that, is you, well, A, having a good friend to point it out to you, but also having, like, you need to have the self awareness, don't you, that that is something that you're doing.

Cause you could have easily gone into that situation thinking, Oh no, I'm doing, I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. But actually like you need to like be able to recognize it so that then you can actually make a change so that it'll work for you.

Teresa: Yeah, absolutely. But no, it was really, really good fun. And your podcast, how many episodes have you done now?

Liz: I'm coming up to my 100th, which I'm really excited about.

Teresa: That's amazing. Have you got something exciting planned for your 100th?

Liz: Well, so I have a podcast editor and basically we've recorded an episode where she interviews me. So kind of what we did with yours, where she interviews me, kind of about like what my experience of the podcast, what I've learned, you know, kind of the lessons, the impact it's had on my business.

So yeah, hopefully that should be nice. And I think I'm going to do a gift, like a fun giveaway with like, like loads of the guests have like amazing physical products. And so I'm going to put together like a goodie box of things all from previous guests.

Teresa: That's so, so good. We had, I had Biz Paul interview me and my husband, Paul, because at the point he worked a lot in the business and also he came with me when I spoke and so episode 200, episode 100 and episode 200 are both me and Paul.

And then when it came to episode 300, he was like, you don't work in a business anymore, Paul. So you're not coming on. You've been on twice. That is enough. And people like him more than me. So I get jealous. But. Episode 300, I didn't actually do anything because I'd planned to do something, but the timing wasn't right.

And as it is, I still haven't done it. It will be coming. But yeah, so 300 is just a normal episode.

Liz: I can't believe you're over 300. That is mega.

Teresa: It's mad isn't it? Like.

Liz: I've got, I've got a funny story to tell you. So your husband does well on your podcast. The only episode that I have recorded that has never gone out on my podcast was with my husband.

Teresa: No, did you tell him? Is he completely gutted?

Liz: No, he was really relieved. It was like, I think I didn't prep him well enough, but basically, so he like, he does something that would have. The top, he like works in online education. So we were going to talk about online courses. It was like, perfect. Fitted really well, but he's in a much more sort of like corporate sphere to me.

And I don't think I sort of like briefed him on the sort of tone of the podcast. He doesn't listen to it, which frankly I think is rude. But then we basically were sat next to each other really closely with this one microphone. And it was, it was the most awkward conversation ever. I was like, yeah, that's.

I'm like, it's not going out. I can't. I can't.

Teresa: That is so good. That is awesome. You're the only one with you, my husband, sorry. And that is the thing. So when Biz Paul interviewed us first time, we were both, we were all in a recording studio. So that was much easier. The second time I think Paul and I did it just using my mic here.

And he is actually going to be recording another episode with me for something completely different, which we'll, we're going to go to Biz Paul's recording studio again to do it there because I just think like, it's that kind of. This is our home and we just huddled around like a pizza. It just seemed really odd.

Liz: Yeah, it was weird. Yeah, I think if I did it in a studio it might go a bit better, but it was really funny.

Teresa: And this is the thing, like he had a lot to say the first time and it was quite nice people getting to know him and getting to know me with him. But when, like he moved out, when he didn't move out of the business, he just got a real job, that meant he was not here and therefore couldn't help with the business.

I was like, yeah, you're kind of losing your point now, Paul. Sorry. I'm sure my audience would love to hear him back on. Anyway, anyway, so even though, so one of the reasons we met or how we met was through Adobe. So you and I are both, part of their, ambassador program. And Liz always does better than I do.

I'd like Liz is really good at doing the Adobe stuff. She's much higher on the leaderboard and I do get a bit competitive, not with Liz, just moving up the leaderboard a bit, but I just don't give it enough time, but your job naturally lends itself more.

Liz: Mine lends itself better to it, I think, than yours does.

And I'm already creating content like that, so it's sort of not that big a leap. Well, not that it's a leap for you, but it's just, we've got different audiences, haven't we? So it's just

Teresa: And your whole thing is talking about brand and branding and design, and so it fits perfectly. But we met through there.

However, today, we're not going to be talking about branding and things. We're going to be talking about a challenge that you did, which I just thought was brilliant. Tell us what the challenge was, Liz.

Liz: So I set myself a challenge to get a hundred rejections in my business. And I feel like I always need to caveat by saying in my business, because there's loads of people on TikTok going around trying to get a hundred rejections just in life.

So like going up to people in the street and asking them to like, sing duets with them and stuff. I was not doing that. Like that's not, that's not my vibe. So yeah, it was a hundred rejections in my business and like a whole story of how it came about. yeah. And I, well, I originally, I mean, I set myself Either to get to a hundred, to do it for six months, basically, my goal is to get to a hundred rejections in six months.

I massively failed. But that was sort of like part of the process. You know, it was an all in experiment.

Teresa: It's a good thing.

Liz: Yeah, it's a good thing, yeah.

Teresa: So, how come you started it?

Liz: So, I invited, so on a whim, about, it was just over a year ago now, I Had tagged someone, basically Christo, I tagged Christo in my, in a story, cause I'd just met him at Adobe Max and he replied, which was really nice of him.

And I thought, Oh, while he, like, if he's replied, then if I reply back, it's probably going to come up in his inbox, you know, rather than filtered off into that people you don't know inbox. And so I was like on a whim, I was like, I'm just going to ask him if he'd be on my podcast. So really impulsively, I asked him to be on my podcast and he sent me a really nice. A really polite message back, but basically asking how many downloads I used to get on my podcast and saying that when I got higher numbers to get back to him.

So basically saying no, which was, and it was very nice and friendly and polite, but I felt like really. My, I guess my reaction to it felt a bit over the top and I actually felt really embarrassed and a bit ashamed and a bit like, I had, you know, when you have that sinking feeling where you're suddenly like, I shouldn't have done that.

Teresa: Why did I do that?

Liz: Yeah, why did I do that? And I felt really embarrassed. And then I was, and then I could immediately sort of like, feel myself going into. Oh, I'm not going to do that again. You know, like I'm never going to ask anybody that's, you know, like too big, to be on my podcast again. And then like, I kind of didn't think anything of it.

I, you know, a few days later, I kind of like forgot about it. But then like a few months later, probably, I can't remember what, but something else will have happened. And it just set me up on this kind of like thought process of like, why am I reacting like this to these things? Because They don't, like, my reaction doesn't seem to match up to the very, like, polite, nice rejection that I've had that's not a big deal.

It's usually not anything about me, particularly. You know, it wasn't that he thought my podcast wasn't good. It wasn't that he thought anything was wrong with me. It was just that he was looking for a bigger audience to reach. And, you know, he probably gets invited onto loads. Anyway, so I just started this process of like, okay, hang on a second.

I can really see now that this is holding me back and it's stopping me go from things because my natural reaction is like self preservation and this doesn't feel nice. So my immediate reaction is like, I don't want to feel this again. So I'm not going to do this again. And so then I was like, okay, well this is not serving me well in my business at all because like, when I sort of take off, I think you've referred, you referred to this on our podcast episode on my podcast about the chimp brain.

And so it's like when I sort of can get myself out of the chimp brain and I think about it logically, actually, most of the times the rejections aren't really about me. If they are about me, then I probably wasn't the right fit for that thing anyway. So there's actually lots of other reasons why the rejection is valid, but I was making it all about me and all about what a story that I would then tell myself about me that was just effectively pretty self sabotagey.

So I was like, so I started to think about how I could change that. Like, what could I do that would change how I felt about rejection? And a friend of mine had done a similar challenge, like a few years previous. And I'd remembered like reading a blog post about it. She called it the no thank you challenge, which is much polite, like a much nicer way, a very friendly version of the rejection.

Teresa: Rejection. Rejection sounds so like. You're awful. Whereas someone went, oh, no, thank you. I'm good. It sounds so much nicer.

Liz: But I went all in with the rejections. But, yeah, and so I just decided that I would, I am the sort of person that loves challenges and this is why I do well in the Adobe Express thing, because they gamified it.

And I love, I love, I love gamifying anything. So like, give me a challenge and I'm, I'm on it. I'm gonna like work at it. And so I set myself this challenge. And honestly, the change was like immediate. So the minute I decided to do it, it was suddenly, I'd created a win win scenario for myself. So if someone said no, it was no longer this really negative thing.

It was helping me achieve my goal of getting a hundred challenges. So yeah, that was the challenge.

Teresa: I love it. So there's a couple of things I want to touch on. And obviously, you know, because we've spoken many times, this whole brain thing is my bag. So first off, for those of you listening, going, Oh my God, that's me.

I need to sort that. And what's wrong with me? There's nothing wrong with you. It is absolutely natural that we would feel like that, that we don't like, you know, one of our Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And weirdly, I've just interviewed someone else this morning and we put that came up as well. How very odd, you know, is that we're accepted and we're part of a community and someone rejecting us goes against that, which then makes us go, Oh my God, I'm not liked. I'm not part of this community and kicks huge fears into us.

So, so that in itself is absolutely fine. And the other thing that's interesting, although you said, and you're right from a business point of view, it's not helpful. There is always a reason why our brain, our nervous system, our Us are doing those things.

Our brain is trying to keep us safe. It knows how it feels to be rejected. It knows how it feels to be embarrassed and shameful. I mean, it's, when we talk about it, it sounds wild that we would say we felt shame. Like when you ask someone and someone says no. And it's funny enough, there's someone I am, I've just had this thought in my head to do a summit, right?

And I have some pretty good and nice connections, and I want to ask one of my very big connections, and I haven't. And there is a really big fear of asking that person, because it's like, if they say no to me, like, One, how does that disrupt our kind of relationship now? Two, how would I feel? Three, what would I put them in?

Like, when they're having to say no, like, it's just, it makes sense. We don't want to feel like that. So I think if you're sat there listening to this going, well, one, you know, Liz has proved you're not on your own and everyone feels like this. But two, our brain is trying to keep us safe. And. What Liz found, if I, you know, can say almost is a shortcut to fixing it because you didn't have to do all the, why are you trying to keep me safe brain?

What are you scared of? Let's journal that out. It was, you knew one of the things that was super powerful to use, gamification. So having that, and that might be it. And if it is, then awesome. Like, how can I, how can I do this in a way that's comfortable? Some people will need to go and journal and think about it.

And so for some people, it's not a case of just doing it. They'd need to plan out each ask or they'd need to think about it or whatever it is. Some people might go, actually just the new challenge of this is the way to do it, but it just purely depends on you. So, so go on, you're sorry, you're gonna say something.

Liz: Well, I, and I think you're right. Like there is. It is important that we do things that keep us safe as well. I think what it is for me is that my sort of like level of keeping my safe, myself safe was too low and I just needed to like raise it a bit. 'cause there's still things that I wouldn't pitch for because if the person said yes, I don't think I would be in a safe space to deliver that thing.

Maybe because it's like, not something I'm qualified to do or, you know, like it would actually be a bit dangerous for me because I don't have the qualifications to do it. I, you know, I, it might be something that I'd like to do down the line, but right now maybe isn't the right time.

And so I think it's not that that like, it's not that that sort of safety element has gone completely. It's just that I've kind of moved where it was. It was almost like overactive in terms of me safe. And so I've just made it so that the, you know, like the things that are risky feel risky and something that I want, but not too risky is, you know, and I think that's going to look slightly different for everybody.

And one of the things that I did, I often sort of try and remember to sort of caveat with this challenge is that. Like I have certain privileges in place that allow me to take risks in my business. So for example, I'm not the sole earner in my family. You know, like if I pitched for a big project and it didn't come through, you know, like we can manage that or, you know, there's, I've got like supportive friends and family.

So if I had a very public rejection, you know, like they would help me deal with that, you know, whereas other people might not have those privileges in place. So that, again, that's going to sort of. change how risk averse you are. And if you're, if you have like, a neurodiverse brain, like potentially you might suffer with a rejection sensitivity disorder.

Again, that's like another, we're not all starting from the same place. And I think we can all definitely work on it. So I think, you know, everybody could do some sort of version of this challenge if they wanted to, but I think it is important to remember. Like, that we've all got our own unique set of like, support, privileges, you know, like some of us will be starting from, you know, it'll be harder to start with, you know, we're all starting from a different place, basically.

Teresa: Yeah. And you're so right. You've brought up two points there that are so, so important to mention. The privilege one. And I have this conversation all the time. So if people come and talk to me about wanting to be coached, well, two things, if people come on a coaching call that are already in my world, and they're like, should I do this thing?

Or shouldn't I, or they're just coming to my world. One of my first questions is like, do you need to pay the mortgage? Is, are you literally going to be in a point where you have no money? Because if that is what you're telling me, my answer is going to be very different to if you say, actually, no, I can live for a good few months before that happens.

So then I'd weigh up that kind of risk. And like you said, what privilege that where they are in their world. And again, if someone comes to me and says they want to be coached and says, I'm going to take it out on a credit card, or I'm going to, it's like, Ooh, hang on a minute. No, really. As someone, you know, that people buy from, you know, as the person selling things, we shouldn't, it's not our responsibility to manage someone else's money.

However, there is a part of me that goes, okay, you might need to give this a bit more thought, but it's the same in your business. So if you're thinking about taking a risk and, and trying something that then is going to result in potentially a knock on effect of actually I've got no money and now I can't afford to feed my children.

You might want to think about that. So that was really interesting, the first one. The second one, and again, like you said, just generally, you know, white privilege, able body privilege, like there's a lot of things that come into play that mean. You know, you would feel more comfortable asking for someone that someone else might not feel comfortable.

But the other thing you say, which I think is so very important, not that I want to knock anybody's confidence and not that I don't want people to go for things, but understanding the level you are at and pushing yourself to the next comfort zone, not go in. I'm going to take over the world. So it's like me asking to do a TED.

Like, yeah, I'm a little bit off there yet. Like, so you just wouldn't even, it's not, do I think I could do a TED? Yeah, one day I think I could, but is it in my realm right now? Absolutely not. Am I like to get a yes? No, probably not. Like, so for me, Understanding that and where you are, because the other thing is, not only are they likely to say no, because you're not there yet, or might say no, you don't know, but also you're going to put yourself in a position where you could fail so hard.

So like. When people ask me about speaking, I often say to them, start small, always. Work out what you're doing, work out who you are, work out how you like to speak, what's, you know, comfortable for you. Don't pitch for these massive stages, because if by chance they put you on them and you fall flat on your face, which you're likely to do because you've never done it before, You have basically just ruined your chance going forward, your confidence and everything.

Sorry, you were going to say something.

Liz: Yeah, no, I was just going to agree. Like, and I think it's like, you can keep going up a level, you know, like, so you start off pitching for the smaller local speaking gigs and then you get confident doing those and then you pitch, you know, you start going for the next level.

The main thing is like starting somewhere, you know, it's, it's the, oh, well, I'm not going to go for that because I'm not a very good public speaker. Well, go and speak at the local event where there's like 50 people there. Like that is like a smaller risk and that's where you start. And so, yeah, for me, it wasn't necessarily about pitching for the biggest things out there.

You know, like there's stuff that, yeah, exactly like you said, like a TED talk, you know, I am not. Even if they said, yes, I am not ready to deliver the sort of talk for a TED talk. And like you said, like the, the sort of, platform for failure is that much bigger. So I think having wisdom, it's having wisdom with it.

And it's, and I'm not saying like go out and pitch for everything, but I am saying, you know, if there's a thing that you feel like you could do really well, but you haven't done it because you're just, you don't want to, you don't want to live with the fact that you've been rejected, like, those are the things that you should be going for.

Because actually, and I think one of the big lessons I've learned from it is like, rejection isn't the end of the story. Like that, either you go on to something better and you find something that's a better fit for you, or you go for that thing again, you know, like you learn from the rejection, you get feedback and you're like, okay, what do I need to put into place so that I can pitch for this thing again?

And have more chance of getting it. And so actually it's all just part of the process. And one of the things that's been really nice for me, I think another reason that I wanted to do this and talk about it so much was I definitely, I mean, my brain just goes extreme places and I'm definitely the sort of person that receives a rejection.

And then my brain tells me that no one else is going through this and I'm the only one that's getting rejected. And so. Like sharing about it and talking about it just means that everyone gets more used to the fact that this, this is literally happening to every person, you know, like whatever they tell you, every person will have received some form of rejection in their business.

And then if we remember that, then we can just be like, yeah, this is normal. This is what I expected. You know, I am not expecting to get a yes to everything. And actually I can move on from this sort of fairly comfortably because one of the things that you mentioned before, like, I don't think I'm ever going to eradicate the feeling of discomfort that I get when I am rejected.

And that's not really my goal because like you said, that is so human. And that is actually, it's like a complete.

Teresa: It's a safety mechanism.

Liz: Yeah. It's totally normal. But what I am changing is what I then do afterwards. And so because I've recognized that my default is to go into almost like self shaming, like telling myself negative stories about myself, I can now nip that in the bud really early on because I can catch myself doing it.

And I, and I just recover from the rejection so much faster. So it's not slowing me down. Like I can move on to the next thing quicker instead of like spending two weeks sort of, you know, like ruminating over this rejection and making it into this big thing. And actually it's knocked my confidence so much that I'm not even applying for the next thing that I'd be a perfect fit for.

So I think that's, you know, that's it. It's not, it's not trying to get rid of those feelings completely. It's just trying to handle them better.

Teresa: Yeah. And like you said, it's that, it's that moving through it quicker. And the only way we can do that is by doing it and doing it and doing it because you need to be able to do it, recognize it, stop it, reframe it, move on, and that can take ages.

So there's a couple of things you said as well. There's so much good stuff in this. So first off I was thinking about you said, you know, if they're not failing in their business, they're not failing in the business. They're not trying.

Liz: Yeah, that's actually a sign of something wrong. Yeah. So I did a talk on this, which you were at and that was a big part of it was like, actually, if you're not getting rejected, some things not working in your business, either your branding isn't communicating effectively for you.

Because actually we should be like people. We shouldn't be appealing to everybody. If we're appealing to everybody, then something's gone wrong. So there's that aspect of it. There's also, like, I think, an ego aspect of it. So if we're not getting rejected, it means, yeah, like you said, that we're not sort of trying.

Teresa: Because we're not pushing ourselves out of our comfort zone. You know, because if, if everything we're going for, we're getting, then we're probably not asking for the big enough stuff. And then the other thing I was thinking about as you were saying all this was, did you see that Elon Musk's, rocket blew up.

Liz: Oh, no, I missed that.

Teresa: Yeah. Something recently in the, in the news, we were watching something and one of his rockets went up and just blew up on whatever. And he, they said on the news that they have a, culture of failing forward. They try and fail. They are constantly, they do things before they should.

They are moving at a fast pace. They are trying to just keep failing, failing, failing, failing, failing as fast as they can so that they can get there quicker. And, and often we think. That this shame and this worry and this like horribleness that we feel, we feel like it's written all over our face, right?

We feel like everyone must know. I remember I pitched, and I don't mind saying who, who was it to? I pitched to the membership guys, to Mike and Callie, who are very dear friends. Years ago when they did their first ever event and I pitched to speak and they came back to me and said, thank you, but no.

Because you don't have a membership. And I didn't, at the time I didn't have a membership. I coached people on doing their own memberships, but I didn't have one. And they were like, every speaker of ours has a membership or has had one. And that's kind of a thing. I took it so badly. Not to them, to them. I just said, Oh yeah, no worries.

Thanks. And then I was like, I can't believe I asked them. I'm so embarrassed. It's because it. I guess there's a friend element there as well, which kind of makes it more embarrassing. Hence this conversation I'm thinking about having probably won't have, let's be honest. But it's that kind of like, this is so embarrassing.

And it feels like everyone else would know. It feels like, and the truth is no one knows. And also like. I, I've made a lot of changes in my club, this year. And I, I basically, whereas most memberships, you grandfather people in and they stay at that grandfathered rate. I didn't. I decided this year that even though they'd been on that grandfathered rate for like three years, cause I have a membership by four years, I was putting everybody up.

And I, some of them were having quite a jump because the person that I was when I started is not the person I am now. What they get is not what they get now. And, you know, I'm a, a really good coach and they are getting extremely good coaching for next to nothing. And I had to go, do you know what the people coming in now on the higher rate?

Everyone needs to have like the skin in the game similar. So I decided to split the price. Anyway, in doing that, I lost a ton of members, which I knew I was going to do. And I did it with my eyes wide open. But my membership is low, like lower than it's been for a really long time. And I was talking to my coach about it the other day.

And I was like, my ego hates that. Like my ego is like, this is embarrassing. Like how awful is this? She was like, well, who would know? And I said, well, you could know if you went and looked or if you monitored my members, like people might know. And she was like, that's so what? And who, and it, you know, it was interesting.

Cause like I said, I do this stuff for other people. I still need it for me. But we somehow think that because we're going through the shame and the embarrassment and all the feelings that it's public and it's like, we're not Elon Musk. We didn't put a rocket up in space, which literally

Liz: everyone saw it. Yeah.

Teresa: Exactly. Like there's no hiding that. So I think it's getting that kind of perspective of. Actually, well, I even, and obviously I remember the Mike and Kelly thing cause I, you know, I obviously talk about it, but I use it as an example. Does it bother me now? Absolutely not. Was it anything to do with me?

No, they had a very specific thing for their speakers. I did not match it. It wasn't that they didn't think I was any good. It wasn't that they didn't like me as a person. It was none of those things. It was, we want speakers who've got this. You just haven't got it. So actually, you know, you don't fit. So it's really, it's.

It's such an interesting challenge. What was your best yes that you got?

Liz: This is like quite niche, but a artist called Lisa Kongdong, who has like 500, 000 followers on Instagram, said yes to being on my podcast, which was huge. And then I've got another one, which I can't, of me being on someone else's podcast, which I can't share yet because it hasn't happened and I don't want.

In case it doesn't happen, but I'll like come back and tell you what it was. But yeah, so those, I think those were like my biggest ones. I've got like loads more times. I mean, basically my, I didn't hit my goal. Anyone in near of a hundred because people, people kept saying yes. I think at the moment I'm about 50 percent yeses, 50% rejection.

which I'm pretty happy with. And so I'm just going to keep going with it. And, and, and what I think was really helpful about the challenge was that it forced me to document what I was doing, which I wouldn't have done normally. And actually seeing those stats and those results. is just so helpful and really motivating.

And also the other thing that I learned was the importance of following up. And so I actually like have a system in place now where I make a note of what I've pitched for. And then I put down, you know, if they come back to me and they're like, Oh, not yet, or get back in touch with us in a few months, you know, I've got a note of that so that I make sure I actually do it.

Which I wouldn't have done before because I wasn't that organized. I was quite chaotic with this sort of thing and so probably I would have pitched for it. They would have said get back in touch and then I just never would have done because I'd forgotten.

Teresa: And then you'd have lost that.

Liz: And then I would have lost that opportunity where I had actually like built, started building a relationship and they were effectively like a warm and interested party.

So that has been really helpful, but just quickly going back to what you said about failing forward. I listened to a brilliant podcast episode the other day with great, I think her name is Grace Andrews and she works for Stephen Bartlett, the diary of a CEO. And she basically, it was on Alice Benham's podcast called starting the conversation.

And she. taught. It's very much like Elon Musk, where basically their whole attitude is failing fast and getting better quickly. And it's just that whole, it's that philosophy of experimenting, isn't it? It's like, try something. It doesn't work. Okay. Move on. Try the next thing. And I think that's the whole sort of thing of the challenge.

It's like, try something didn't work. Okay, I'm on to the next thing. And it's like what we talked about at the beginning. It's like, not letting the rejection slow us down, but almost like letting them fuel us forward. Yeah. So that we can get to where we want to get to quicker.

Teresa: Yeah. And if that for you is a challenge, as in it works by doing a challenge, or if that works by doing some other thing, then do it.

And I think the truth is you are already As business owners, we are already in a big minority, as in most people weren't even brave enough to take the first step that we've taken. So any judgment, and again, we've, I've talked about this. In fact, I think you did a Facebook live with, Becci. Yeah. And I put this quote in because one of you mentioned the quote and then I was, I was sat here watching you and I Googled and then copied and pasted it.

But like Brene Brown's quote that she actually took from someone else, actually, I don't think it's her quote, but something along the lines of if you're not in the arena getting beaten up, then I'm not interested in your opinion. And that's what I think we've got to be. We've got to be, not worry about what others are going to think about failing.

But also remember to split that person in your head, that if it's a chimp in your head going, Oh, you're not good. And you're terrible. And you're this and you're that. It's like, I always say that when you're kind of, if you're doing limiting beliefs, if I do anything exercises like that, I always say to people, is there anybody in the world who's achieved the thing that you're trying to achieve?

And if there is, it can be done. Find those examples, find examples of people that fail massively. Richard Branson, Branson, I've just said his name really weird. Richard Branson, that's how he likes me to call him.

You know, when I'm on the phone to him. He's failed so many times, like how many different businesses has he had over the years? Some have been absolute flops, like virgin brides, that barely got off the ground. He used to have virgin makeup. I did a dissertation on Richard Branson.

Liz: So you know all of his businesses?

Teresa: I know about all this stuff, but obviously things like virgin music, you know, the mega stores or whatever they were, they've gone. Like so many of his businesses have failed. And those are just the ones that make it into the public domain. How many didn't even get that far? And you don't see him kind of carrying in a corner going, I'm not doing this anymore.

I'm so tired of this. You know, I think it's the, the more and more and more we do business, the more I realized that it's almost not ever about the product or the service. It's about the tenacity and the, the almost pig headedness of, no, I'm going to make this work and going for it and going for it and going for it.

And, but learning, constantly learning from those things. So what would you say to someone if they're sat there listening to this going, I think I'd like to give that a go. Cause also you did it publicly, which must've helped.

Liz: Yeah, definitely.

Teresa: Because you've got an element of accountability.

Liz: Accountability, yeah.

Teresa: So if someone's thinking about it, what would you say?

Liz: I would say set up a system for documenting it, like, as in it doesn't have to be public, but like I had a, just like a Google sheet where I put the date, who I contacted. I also used it for storing the contact details of people that I was planning to get in touch with.

If, I mean, this might not be in budget for everybody, but if you've got LinkedIn premium, like LinkedIn is a brilliant place for finding out, people's like contact details. I even guessed some of them. So I would find the person I knew I needed to contact. And then you could, with a bit of Googling, you can usually work out what their business's email structure is and guess what that email address is.

So that works quite well. But yeah, definitely a way of documenting it. I've actually now made a Trello board where, I can like move the sort of things I've pitched for along the board, which I made into a template so that people can use it as well. But, yeah, so document it. I think like a big part of it for me was research so I sat down and made a really long list of things that I wanted to pitch for and like you know some of them felt like easier and quicker some of them felt you know like oh actually I need to spend a bit of time thinking about this one.

I would really like work on how you pitch and this is going to Change depending on what it is that you're pitching for. So some of them I did quite spontaneously. So if, so for example, one, actually one of my big wins that I did, forgot to mention was getting Flodesk as a sponsor for my podcast. And that was really cool.

And they, cause they would like literally at the top, my dream list of sponsors, they were like the perfect one. And I was like, that's what I want. But what actually happened with them is they emailed me about something else. And then I just took that opportunity. I didn't wait until I felt ready. I don't even think I had my slide deck together or up to date or anything, but I just replied and was like, what about this?

And they, and because they were already like warm, the conversation had already started. It was like a lot. It wasn't like a cold approach and that I think massively helped. So things like that. So sort of be agile and spontaneous when you need to be, but spend time sort of considering your pitch. And I think, interestingly for me, you're probably getting this a lot more now that you're interviewing people, but I get quite a lot of people pitching to be on my podcast.

And that's actually helped me. It's helped me a lot because it's helped me realize what I don't like and what I do like. And so I basically made myself a pitch template based on what I would want to receive. You know, like one of the biggest things that bugs me about receiving pitches is when people don't put any links in the email to where I can find them online.

And so if I want to find out anything about them, I literally have to go and like search and Google and that just slows me down. And I'm like, Now, if you're not going to make it easy for me, I'm not interested. So like, think about that, you know, think about what it's like to receive a pitch and what you would want, make it as easy for them to find out the information they need to find out so that they can respond quickly.

So I think, yeah. And, and also like, don't beat yourself up about it. Like the whole point of this is it's like a learning process. So, you know. Pitch for things, you can refine and tweak as you go, you can improve them. If there's an opportunity to ask for feedback, like, ask for feedback, it's not always easy to hear, but often in those situations, it's constructive, and so it is actually helpful.

I mean, there might not always Yeah, that might not always be the sort of case that there's an opportunity to do but that can be really beneficial. I think, yeah, the accountability piece is helpful. You know, like it really helps me sharing about it and one of the byproducts of this that I've absolutely loved that I didn't.

I didn't really factor in when I started. Cause this was like a purely selfish thing for me. And then I thought I'll share it because it's probably like quite relatable content, was that so many people messaged me saying, Oh, I saw you talking about this and I just pitched for X, Y, Z, and they said, yes, and there's amazing things happening, you know, like people literally speaking.

One of my friends like got an incredible speaking gig, like teaching workshops. Another one was like featured in a magazine, you know, all these people just like. It just, like, inspired them to just give something a go that they've been thinking about. And I think sometimes we just need to, like, cheer each other on.

And so actually, sharing it can really help other people. Because I think it's like what you said, you know, find what. If you can see it, then you know you can do it. So if you see someone else doing it, then you're like, oh! I can do this too. This is something that I can actually do. And so, yeah, I think sharing it does really help because, and also sharing the rejections because I did actually did this on my stories the other day where I was like, share in the box anonymously a rejection you received recently.

And let's, and I'm going to share them because actually let's all remember, we're not the only one receiving the rejections. Everyone's receiving them. Yeah. It's like what you do moving forward from there.

Teresa: And I've had, you know, I get, one of the reasons I stopped interviews was because I was getting too many people applying and it was becoming like a full time job for one of the team.

It was ridiculous. And, and like you said, the people applying, well, it wasn't even them a lot of time. It was like agencies. But Or it would be someone who goes, I'm such a big fan of your podcast. Insert the podcast. Like, and then they would put in an old name. Now I've changed my podcast name three times.

So they would put in like marketing that converts, which is what it used to be called.

Liz: That's actually a good trick. That is a good trick because it weaves out a load of people.

Teresa: Evidently not, because you don't know what it's for.

Liz: My favourite one was, I got one that said, Oh hey Liz, I really enjoyed what you talked about in, and it literally had a blank line, with so and so, and then it had a blank line, and he, and then the rest of the email, and so I replied, and I was like, oh I'm really interested to know which of the emails you found so beneficial.

Yeah. Which of the podcast episodes, I mean, because it was so like, oh, it was so cringe. Yeah, I mean, Yeah, there's, that is, that is hard about podcast. I've got like a, I've got a set reply now that I just like, you know, like a pre, a saved email. And I do basically saying that I'm not looking for guests.

If I, if there's someone I really want to interview, I'm going to fit them in. I will fit them in.

Teresa: And that's what we do. So for, well, for, before I stopped interviews, we had a. No, maybe, and a yes that were already written out. And then I would just forward the email to Johanne, my assistant, and go, no, maybe, yes, and she would know what email to send them.

Then when we stopped interviewing, we just have a blanket, we're not taking interviews at the moment and we've not changed that, but like you said, if someone comes along and I go, Oh yeah, so I had Ryan Dice's team contact me asking him. If he can come on with the other day, and I've just said it on here, so if he doesn't come on, you'll know that that didn't come off

But you know, obviously I'm not gonna say no to Ryan Dice. It's like, yeah, sure, I'll have him on the podcast. Brilliant, thanks. Like so I think it's good. But, but like I said, it's the putting a bit of effort in. How much time did you spend? 'cause that's the only thing that puts you off because I know what it's like to be on the receiving end of a blanket rubbish response or a blanket rubbish kind of pitch.

I try and put a lot of time and effort in, but then that in itself is like a full time job as well. So how did you find that balance of like putting enough effort in, but without spending an hour and a half, which to be fair, I can, if I'm listening to that, I will listen to a couple of their episodes, I will like, look at their stuff, I will, you know, I can spend some time, how do you kind of get that balance right?

Liz: I think it's another thing where you get, you do get quicker at it. So it's, you know, in the same way that you get quicker at dealing with a rejection, so you get better at, pitching. Like one thing that I do is I, if I have downtime, so say I was on a long train journey once and I just suddenly felt inspired to write a pitch and I wrote it on the notes of my phone, sent it to my friend and was like, what do you think of this?

And then by the time I got off the train, I'd sent off a, you know, like sent off a pitch. So I think it's just finding little pockets of time that you can use. Like one of the things that I did was like almost like batch create the tasks. So I would, I would sit down and spend a whole amount of time just researching who I needed to contact and just put those all in a list.

So that was all there ready to go. You know, then I might sit down and try and write a few pitches in one go. So I could, I, you know, I wasn't starting from scratch every time. obviously double checking that you've got the right name and the right, all that kind of thing. But yeah, like batching, batching content as well.

And then, you know, like if there's a podcast, like if it's podcast, for example, like a lot of my goals were with the podcast, if it's podcasts that you want to pitch for, like, I would really recommend spending time, like you said, listening to the episodes, but you don't have to do that all in one go, you know, like put it on your playlist for your run, like spend a few weeks, like just sort of absorbing the information so that then you're like ready to write the pitch.

And the other thing that I would massively recommend is actually engaging with the host of the podcast. So if you have commented on loads of my posts, you know, like I've seen you pop up in my Instagram and then you pitch me. there's going to be a level of recognition. And I'm going to be like, Oh, I, that name sounds familiar.

And that's going to make me way more inclined to like, look into it. The ones that drive me.

Teresa: Stop and think, isn't it?

Liz: Yeah. And be like, Oh, actually I'm interested to find out who this person is. The ones that drive me crazy are the people who tell me they love my podcast. And then I go and find them online and they don't even follow me.

And I'm like, well, not that it's about the follow, but I'm like, I don't believe you love it as much as you say you love it, because if you did, you'd be interested in finding out when the next episode's out. And so just stuff like, it's like little things like that, that you can actually just like integrate into your routine.

That will help you be ready to pitch and then you can do that quite quickly.

Teresa: And it's a bit like when we talk about engaging on social media and like being genuine, that's what you're doing. Like, yes. And so I will write in an email and one of the best pictures I ever had, which I talk about a lot, and he's been on the podcast because he was such a good pitch.

He actually wrote an email. I've only just discovered your. Your podcast, but I've listened to a couple episodes and I'm hooked or whatever he wrote. And it was a really nice, like, so I will often put an email. I've been, your podcast has been brought to my attention. I gave it a listen. I think it sounds great.

Like I'm not pretending I'm your biggest fan. Like I'm trying to be really honest about it because I hate the dishonesty of like, Oh, you know, I had a brilliant one, which I will say very quickly, but God, it was bad. So I had interviewed someone. I'm not going to say who it is because otherwise. Like people work things out, but anyway, I interviewed someone about a particular subject.

Okay. It was a very specific subject and I'd had them on a while, a while ago, like a few years back now. However, people could work the site. However, on my website, on my homepage of my podcast, I have like selected episodes of like, you might want to go and listen to this. I get an email from this person saying, my, I don't know if it was her boss or someone she represents, but basically pitching this person to me and they wrote, I'm such a big fan.

I've listened to your episodes. Right. And, but I noticed you've never had anybody talking about. XYZ. I'd had two people talking about it, her being one of them. So I'd really like to pitch my, I don't like, I don't know if she's a client or whatever, wrote this person's name. I think she'd be a great fit.

I think you'd have a great conversation. Dah, dah, dah, dah. I obviously was not in a great mood that day. I am very polite. I don't like conflict. However, I was annoyed. So I replied back going, if you've taken a minute, you evidently don't listen to my podcast, because if you'd even gone to the podcast page, you would see that the person you're pitching is on that page.

And so not only have I done two episodes on this, but the person you're pitching is one of the episodes. She never replied to me again. And I basically just put, I think you need to do a bit more homework before you pitch someone again. And I must've, I've obviously roasted her and I felt really bad about it, but also I was like, come on, man.

Liz: That's her job. Like that thing with so many of them, their job is pitching their clients to podcasts. Like that is what they're doing all day, every day. And it's like, if you can't even do the most basic of cursory, like glances of research.

Teresa: Just put their name in the search box of my podcast and you will see. Again, I've had someone else pitch me someone I've already had and I've gone back and gone, they've already been on and then didn't hear anything again. It's really frustrating.

Liz: One of my favorites is I pitched someone. and they were, they had very sort of like strict boundaries on how many, how much time they could give me. So they were like, you can only have 30 minutes. And I was like, oh, it's not going to work. Like, that's just not how my podcast works.

So I was like, nevermind. And then, no joke, two weeks later, they pitched me back. And I was like, well, you remember that you said I could only have 30 minutes. And they were like, Oh no, of course. Oh, of course we can give you an hour. So as soon as they realized that my podcast was like valuable, they sort of like researched it and realized that it was valuable to them, then they were pitching me and I was just like, yeah, it's not gonna happen.

Teresa: Honestly, like, and that's another thing I do. I put in, when I pitch to the people, I put in who I've had on my podcast as a credibility. Now I know that I've not been on theirs, but I've interviewed them on mine. So. I obviously can't be horrendous because they wouldn't be on and I wouldn't have had all the guests that I've had.

But yeah, it's, it's a really interesting one. But I think, you know, exactly what Liz did. It's the fact of just, just asking what is the worst that they can say?

Liz: Yeah. And actually, like, the other thing that really helps me from a mindset perspective with the, like, from being, having pitches for the podcast is sometimes I say no to people because I have just, they could never know this, but I literally, like, last week it hasn't gone out, but I just happened to interview someone about that topic.

And so it's not about them at all. It's just about that. It doesn't fit in with my sort of schedule of recording. And I think that is just so helpful to remember that there's so many reasons that aren't about us that someone could be saying no. And I, I do really like the, quote, you know, like rejection is just redirection.

And so it's like, you know, just, it just moves you into a different direction, potentially something that's way better for you.

Teresa: And they're doing you a favor. Like if someone pitches onto my podcast and they are absolutely not for my audience. I'm obviously not going to have them on, but why would you want to come on anyway?

Cause my audience are not your audience. I had someone the other day pitch really like fancy looking middle aged white man in a suit who does a lot of corporate stuff. And it's like, I am not corporate. Like, I don't know why you're trying to pitch this person on my podcast. Like, it just makes no sense.

So if they think you're not the right fit, then good. You're not the right fit.

Liz: And it means you haven't wasted your time because you would have, you would spend like at least an hour, potentially more of your time and it's going to have no benefit to your business because the audience is all wrong. So yeah, that's just like such another helpful way to think about it. Yeah.

Teresa: I love it. Liz, thank you so, so much for joining me. I love this challenge you've done. I just think it's really, really good. And it's something that as business owners, we have to remind ourselves, but that comes from people like us being honest and going, no, I fail too. And yes, I have bad days. And yes, you know, this doesn't change when you have a different business or get to a different level or whatever.

This is still something that everyone goes through. And even the big, massive people in this world, like the Tony Robbins and the Amy's and the, all them, they get rejection as well. We just don't hear about it. So thank you so much for this.

Liz, where do you hang out and where can people come and find you and follow you? And, yeah.

Liz: So you can find me on Instagram at Liz M Mosley. That's where I spend most of my time hanging out. Come listen to my podcast, which is called Building Your Brand. And then my website is just lizmosley. net if you want to come find me there as well.

Teresa: Awesome. And we will make sure we link up to your template that you've done, that people can use in Trello as well. Liz, thank you so much for being a guest on the podcast. It was so lovely to have you.

Liz: Oh, thanks for having me.

Teresa: Okay. There we go. That was this week's episode. I want to know. I want you to come and tell me what you're going to ask.

I want you to be brave and I want you to use us as accountability. And I always love it when I get like emails or DMs going, yes, I'm doing this. So come and tell us what you're going to do, what you're going to be brave. Remember the worst thing that can happen is they say no, and you've lost nothing.

So be brave, do it this week. We're going to make it. Okay. Have a lovely week and I will see you next week. Take care.