In this episode, I delve into the often-dreaded topic of rejection, particularly as it affects women entrepreneurs. I interviewed Alice Draper, founder and chief strategist at Hustle Writers, who shared valuable insights into why rejection feels so daunting and how women are often socially conditioned to avoid it.
We discussed strategies for building resilience to rejection and provided practical tips for crafting effective pitches to increase visibility. We also shared personal stories of rejection to emphasize that it’s a common experience, even for seasoned professionals.
Join the conversation to learn how overcoming the fear of rejection can open doors to business success.
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Transcript
Teresa:
In today’s episode of the podcast, we are talking about rejection. Now, I know it’s something that you don’t want in your life. And in fact, as humans, we avoid it at all costs. But today’s guest Alice shares with us some insight as to why that’s the case. And also, If you are a female, why it’s even more the case that we try and avoid rejection at all costs, which really helped me understand why it’s not our fault.
Alice also takes us through the six things that you should include in a pitch when you are trying to get on someone else’s podcast, which if you know me and you’ve been following me for a while, you know, this is a big part of the strategy that I teach is about getting you visible. So we not only deal with the very practical sense of this is what you should include, but we also look at the whole rejection piece and how you can strengthen that rejection muscle.
So you don’t let it stop you in your tracks. I also [00:01:00] share a rejection that I had recently, and she shared one of hers. So if you are thinking this goes away and you don’t have to deal with it at certain points in your business, Then believe me, you are exactly in the right place because we are going through it with you.
Hello, and welcome back to another episode of your dream business podcast. As always, I’m your host Teresa Heath Wareing. And I really want to thank you for taking the time to join me today. I appreciate you probably like many of us have very busy lives. So I really do appreciate you making the effort to not only listening to the podcast, but also to investing in yourself.
This is something that I have done massively through the years in terms of making sure that I am constantly improving my education, constantly working at how can I be better and how can the business be better. In today’s episode, I’m interviewing Alice Draper, who is the founder and chief strategist and is on a mission to make publicity easy and accessible for under recognized women entrepreneurs at all stages in their business.
When Alice started the business, she knew that publicity in the right places would garner her the authority that she needed to position herself as a high end copywriter. And so she started [00:03:00] pitching magazines like VICE, Refinery 29, HuffPost and Business Insider. This came with an unplanned skill, the art of the pitch, which is how she ended up pivoting her business towards publicity.
She has now been running Hustle Writers for over two years. And in this time, she has secured her clients with over 500 podcasts, including countless top one and top 0. 5 percent podcast. A big part of Alice’s work is to normalize rejection and how rejection resilience ties into success. Alice and I talk all about rejection and what it’s like, and also how we need to get over the fear of being rejected, especially when we put ourselves out there.
And I know what it’s like. I have had it firsthand experience as well as working with hundreds of entrepreneurs and helping them do the same. It is tough, but if you can master the skill of being rejected, brushing yourself down and starting again, then [00:04:00] believe me, this is how it is going to lead to success for you and your business.
So I really hope you enjoyed today’s episode. We talk some real practical stuff as well as a bit of mindset stuff. So it’s got something for everyone. Okay. Welcome to the podcast. Alice, how are you doing?
Alice:
I’m doing great. How are you doing, Teresa?
Teresa:
I’m really, really good. We’ve already had a conversation about where you’re from.
The accent doesn’t tie up with where you live, which isn’t where you are right now. So that’s like messing with everyone’s head potentially. So you were saying that you’re originally from South Africa.
Alice:
Yes, I’m living in Dubai and I’m zooming in from Norwich. So we’re both in the UK right now.
Teresa:
So it’s, it’s very interesting where you’re, you’re all over the place.
I love it. I love it. So you talk about something that is most people’s idea of, well, like hell really, rejection. And you, in your information that you sent over prior to the podcast, you wrote something that I thought was really [00:05:00] interesting. Pitching is tough because rejection is almost guaranteed and us women are not ready.
Why? Because society never prepared us. Can we just talk about that for a minute in terms of A, why it’s tough full stop, and why, then it might be tough for women.
Alice:
Yeah. Yeah. So rejection is tough full stop because humans are hardwired evolutionarily to avoid rejection. Like if we’re, if our ancestors were rejected, they’d be kicked out of the tribe.
Like they could have no food and no shelter, no water and die. So like that lizard brain is still there and we’re just, We’re going to do everything in our power to avoid being rejected from our community because that screams threats and that screams like something very bad will happen. And so, We see that, but then we also see that the more marginalized you are, the more like you will do anything to avoid that rejection.
And it’s for very valid reasons. So if you take a man, he’s had to kind of take [00:06:00] risks his whole life. And he’s also seen other men take risks their whole life. So if you take like dating in the heterosexual context, like it’s the men who are putting themselves out there and pursuing women, and it’s the men who are normalizing and habituating to the fact that they’re getting rejected.
But then it’s also like the men seeing other men around them take risks and be okay. Which kind of like affirms the brain, okay, I’m not going to get kicked out of the tribe, it’s going to be all right. Whereas for women, often we kind of grow our whole lives not getting rejected, like you can enter adulthood and not have ever like gone and asked someone on a date and had known.
So you see perfectionism coming, kind of being a lot more tied to women. And, and I mean, like there’s kind of various studies that would show this. One of the ones that comes to mind is with jobs. Like there’s various studies that show that women will only apply for jobs when they meet all and [00:07:00] more of the criteria and men will apply for the jobs when they don’t meet the criteria at all.
Yeah. And I had a client who used to work in HR and so she used to always say like the men would always negotiate the salaries and it was very, very rare for a woman to negotiate salary. And like working in HR, you just expected people to negotiate salaries. That’s what you did. That’s what her job was.
So yeah. So I think that’s the kind of gendered lens. And then. Not learning to kind of build that rejection resilience, not learning to make bold asks is the most costly thing, not just in life, but in business. Like if we can’t flex that muscle and stop normalizing rejection, we’re not going to kind of pursue the biggest and best things that we want for ourselves.
Yeah, sorry.
Teresa:
I was just gonna say, so do you think that’s the, that’s the key? Do you think it’s a case of actually this is just a muscle you’ve got to build? Or do you think that there are [00:08:00] things that you can do prior to getting rejected to feel better about it or to be prepared for it?
Alice:
That’s a great question.
I mean, I think that the muscle is going to get built, like it’s got to get built regardless. And I think that preparation helps. Like there’s a reason you’re scared of getting rejected because You don’t want to make a fool of yourself. So of course, like with a fear, you’re going to do the best thing you can, which is make sure that your offer is in the best position.
It could be your pitches, the best picture could be, and like every you’re getting kind of everything lined up in the best way possible. And if you know that. And you’re putting stuff out. When you get rejected, it will still hurt because you will still kind of spiral. And like, I’m not gonna, such as they do, like, go on a rejection hunt with no strategy, like, of course, if you’ve sent out like 50 pitches and all of them have been no’s, and some of them have been like not so nice [00:09:00] no’s, and, or ghosted, and you’ve never gotten a yes, like, maybe it’s time to look at that strategy and see if something could be changed, maybe the offer needs to be tweaked, maybe the pitch needs to be tweaked.
Something needs to change. Maybe you can enlist your community to come have a look and give you some advice, but at the same time, you can have all of that down and then not have that muscle and get one rejection and decide that that is determining, like that is a sign that what you’re doing is wrong and what you’re doing is not working and you should just stop or give up.
And I mean, I, I built. It’s like I started, I set my first rejection goal like years ago and I, you know, I’ve been talking about this for ages and my podcast launched last week and so we’ve been pitching partnerships for the podcast and we had like some amazing partnerships. Someone wrote us for us for like a Vancouver newspaper because she liked what we were doing so much and then I got one really, really rude rejection where I got accused of using AI to create fake authenticity and then the person I concluded with, how [00:10:00] disgusting, full stop.
Teresa:
Oh wow, wow, wow, wow.
Alice:
I felt like my like hot lip to my throat, I just felt like red and ashamed and horrified and immediately I was like, I can’t do this anymore. Clearly I’m just gonna make everyone angry by like, pitching them.
Teresa:
Oh my god, that’s horrible. I feel sick for you. Like, I just see sometimes I don’t understand with like, There’s only once I’ve been slightly rude to and rejected something and that is not me at all.
They obviously caught me on a very bad day and basically they pitched someone for my podcast and they, they had said to me, you know, I’m big fan notice. You’ve never had anyone talking about this particular subject and also notice you’ve not had this person and I’d love to pitch them. And basically, I had had someone on that subject.
In fact, I had had the [00:11:00] person they were pitching and it annoyed me because it was like, Oh, come on. And the worst thing was if they had literally just gone to my podcast page on my site, her face was one of the main faces I showed. Right. So it was like, you didn’t even do your homework. So I sent quite a, short, direct message saying I would do your homework in future because not only have I had it, two people talk about this thing.
One of them was the person you’re pitching. So I was annoyed, but that’s the only time I’ve ever sent anything like that. Ordinarily, I would just go, thank you so much, but unfortunately I’m really busy. I’m whatever it might be. I don’t often say no, if I’m honest, but like, I do find it fascinating that someone would be so rude.
Alice:
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I don’t even think that your response is rude. I would take that as you’re being honest. Like that is helpful information.
Teresa:
She should have done her homework.
Alice:
As the pitcher, you’re like, oh, damn, I made a mistake there. But this was like, oof. And you know, like. Yeah. I actually had read the articles.
I was like, there is a human [00:12:00] behind. Yeah. There’s no AI. It’s a human. Like it’s getting affected by this rejection. But the thing is, is that. When you get something like that and I’ve had entrepreneurs tell me that they’ve had like a really bad rejection early on and like trying to pitch themselves and this could be whether it’s publicity or it could be for business and that they are too scared to put themselves out there again because of that and I completely understand I mean like that was my reaction and so one thing that I know and you know it goes with that kind of like what does rejection do it threatens our safety is that community is the like override because if you can enlist your community to kind of champion you and support you in this, it says to that lizard brain, Oh, I’m not getting kicked out of the tribe.
I’m actually safe. Actually, everyone’s supporting me through this. So, Like I, I went and wrote a LinkedIn post about it and I spoke to like various people on my team. . Sorry, go ahead.
Teresa:
I mean, I just wanna know who said that now, obviously, but this, the, the funny thing is, and the, the cool thing is the fear that we will oust from the community, which like you said, comes from a very old, you know, thing that has been around for a very, very long time that our brain just hasn’t caught up on yet.
The irony of the whole thing is the more we share the rejection and the vulnerability, the more likely we are to be included in the community because everyone goes through it, right? So this morning, I sent, I’m in the moat, I’m in the middle of a launch at the moment and it’s a very high touch launch because it’s for a high touch, high cost program.
And so this morning what I’ve done is I’ve sent out a load of voice messages myself from on Instagram and one of them’s come back and basically said, you know, really lovely. I can’t afford you. I would love to do the program, but I’ve signed up with such and such a person. I know who they’ve signed up with will be not even a 10th of what I [00:14:00] charge.
So, you know, that all makes perfect sense, but even that, and I know this person personally, and I love them and she’s so sweet to me. And she’s like, I love you. And I want to be in your world. I wish I could afford you. And even that makes me go, Oh God, I don’t want to send the other messages.
Because it hurts so we don’t like it, but I think it’s super important to share that we all go through it. We all, no matter what stage you’re at, no matter how big your audience is, no matter who you’re hanging out with, everyone is getting a rejection at some point. And I’d go as far as to say, if you’re not, you’re probably not putting yourself out there enough.
Alice:
Yeah, precisely. Like, I could quote that and put it in a little clip or a quote, but I, I love the story you just shared. Cause I mean, it’s so relatable. I’ve had that too. And I think that sales holds us back so much, especially as women. I like, I don’t know, but I’ve seen it with various of my clients who are business coaches and I’ve gone through their [00:15:00] programs and I’ve like spoken to the people kind of, and it’s like, you’ve got the offer, you’ve done the market research.
You’ve like ticked all these boxes and now it’s just stalled at this, like, get it out there stage. It’s a stalled at this, like, start pitching, start talking to business partners, start, like, sharing it with your network, start selling to your network. And selling is just terrifying because you’re going to get rejected.
Like, there is no ways everyone out there is going to say yes So the offer we’re selling is just not how the market works, regardless of how good the product is.
Teresa:
And sometimes the rejection will be nothing to do with you. Like, so one of the things you talk about, one of the things I want to dive into, because it’s actually something that I talk about a lot is this getting visible.
And for me, the direction I come up from it is my audience They often run a personal brand and therefore they should be trying to become the expert or one of the experts in their field [00:16:00] because the more that they can lift their visibility up, the more they can build their audience, the more people they can serve, the more money they could make.
How, what’s your take on visibility? What kind of things do you, what’s your drive for getting people to become more visible? What’s the kind of back bit to it?
Alice:
I mean, everything you just said there, I think it’s so much like I, there, there’s, you know, cause I do podcast publicity. That’s kind of what I do for my clients and what the whole business model is rooted in.
And when someone comes and works with us on like a one on one basis, it’s usually because they have a very clear strategy, like they’re trying to sell more books, they have a book launch and they’re just trying to get more books. But the effect is huge of publicity. You know, I. I did actually have someone who’d never been on podcasts and she wanted to come and work with us because she had this very niche, very specific field where she served like this really medical, she was like a marketing officer for like a very medical niche field in America.
And so there were not [00:17:00] actually tons of podcasts that she could get onto, but she worked with us for like, a little while and got into like nine or so podcasts. And I mean, she messaged me like a few months later and it was like, I just landed a huge client because someone heard me on her podcast. But in our sales, she explained that talking on podcasts was literally just to have the social proof so that when it shortens the sales cycle, so that when someone Is interested in her, they can go click play on these interviews, which is also more credible for body of work than if it’s like a blog post on a website and then hear her talk on someone’s podcast and be like, okay, she knows what she’s talking about.
She can help us solve this problem. We’re going to like, Pursue working with her. And then podcasting is so much else. Like it’s direct sales, building your audience, being visible. Like the ROI of being visible is very hard to quantify, but yeah, like I second everything you just said.
Teresa:
Yeah. And it’s, for me, being a guest on someone’s [00:18:00] podcast is so crucial. it as part of my strategy. So it’s something, you know, as well as recording a ton of my own podcast interviews today, I have some other people’s interviews booked in as in I’m going to guest on theirs. And it is really, really useful for me to get me out there. Cause like you said, it’s a very credible way of being seen.
So if someone sat there going, I am so terrified of that rejection of showing up of pitching. I think even the word pitch feels horrible. Like, it just feels like, just makes me want to like, shiver and go, no, I don’t want to do that.
Alice:
It feel sleazy, right? Because of what we associate with the word bitch.
Teresa:
I immediately think of man, which is probably really rude to me, but like, and I immediately think of like sales, hardcore, like, you know, so if we are doing If we are thinking, okay, we need to pitch, what kind of things should we be thinking about?
How should we be [00:19:00] approaching this? What kind of tips and strategies have you got with us in terms of getting brave to pitch ourselves?
Alice:
Well, you touching on how these words feel sleazy and salesy, I actually think is something we can use to our advantage. So I brought up that rude rejection, but the reason that rude rejection really freaked me out is because we send hundreds and hundreds of pitches a month.
Like we have multiple clients and you’re sending the pitches and I have not gotten a rude rejection like that. Like that’s the rudest rejection I’ve ever gotten in five years. Most of the time when we’re rejected it’s like, wow this pitch is amazing, I wish I got you before I concluded my season. Or like, really like, really encouraging things.
Or like, this is the best pitch I’ve ever read, yes come on the show. So it’s, this is why I think that we can pitch really well, because most of the pitches really suck. So it’s not that hard to kind of stand out and, And all you really need to do, as you mentioned, is people don’t research very well. [00:20:00] So if you can have a very personalized introduction, where you are mentioning a very specific thing about the podcast.
So if you went and listened to an episode and picked up Five minutes in, Teresa spoke about how she sends two emails a week and you kind of highlight that and say, Oh my gosh, this has prompted me to get back to get my mailing list alive again, because I haven’t sent an email in three months. Then Teresa can read that and be like, Okay, there’s someone, this person listens to my podcast, this person is saying something very real about my podcast because it’s very unbelievable when you say your podcast is amazing.
I love it so much. Like,
Teresa:
yeah.
Alice:
Very general statement.
Teresa:
I’m a big fan. Really? When you copy and pasted it in, because I can see the difference in fonts. Like you sound like a big fan. And also things like I had Liz Mosley on a while back who also talks about rejection. She did a little rejection challenge herself.
And one of the things that she said, which was such a good point is when they don’t even follow you on [00:21:00] social media. And they’re like, I’m such a big fan, but yet you don’t follow me anywhere. And I’ve never seen your name. Like, you know, just be honest. Like I much prefer it when people go, I’ve just discovered your podcast.
If they have just discovered the podcast. Like for me, it’s about, you know, as real as they can make it. So yeah, sorry, I interrupted. Go on.
Alice:
Yeah, no, but that’s, that’s such a great point. Like, make it believable. Don’t declare sweeping statements because what evidence is there that this is true and people have bullshit detectors?
Teresa:
Yeah. And when you’re a podcaster, like you can spot that a mile off because we get a ton of applications. So literally it’s like, yeah, no, yeah, no. Before we even start.
Alice:
Yeah. Yeah. So, but I think I jumped a step, but it’s also put in the subject line very clearly what you’re pitching. So I always put like podcast guest pitch colon, and then the name of like what the title episode is.
Cause also you really going to annoy someone if you’re like making them think that their email is something else and then they click in [00:22:00] and it’s actually a pitch rather, you know, have someone go in knowing exactly what this email is going to be about. And then. I go straight into story. So I would recommend working on a pitch template that has a great narrative, something very short and shocking.
So let’s say you talk about workplace bullying, your story could be, my manager screamed at me, you’re useless before throwing a file on my desk. And then you can kind of like loop into how this is about workplace bullying. If you have like some social proof, You could say, I wrote about this for Fast Company or I spoke about this on this big podcast or whatever, like something that someone can click into.
Cause I was like, Oh, this is. This is a very credible story. It’s kind of been shared elsewhere. If you don’t, then I would just jump next into the speaking points. So that’s like in this episode I can talk about, and then there you want to list the action driven speaking points. So that’s when you’re kind of like how to build mental resilience when you’re being [00:23:00] harassed at work, how to enlist your community to support you as you do stuff, because what’s going through the host mind, you’ve got to really think about it.
Like, how is the host receiving this? If the host has found the subject line intriguing, which is what’s made them click open on the email. And now they’ve seen that you’ve actually listened to the podcast. And then they’re going to keep reading. Now they see that the story is interesting. So you’ve got their attention.
Then the next question on their mind is what value will this bring to my audience? Like what is the audience going to get out of it? So then that’s when you kind of want to list the speaking points. And then if they still have read this and they’re still interested because now the value looks good and the speaking points look good.
The next question is, who are you and can you pull this off? So then that’s why I put the bio, something like about me. And then you kind of put like a two to three line bio and then links and links to all the places you want them to go to. So that’s like, your linkedin, your websites, your social media. Have you spoken on other podcasts, other podcasts you’ve been on?
If you were, if you did a TEDx talk, you put the link there. Like, [00:24:00] whatever it is that you kind of think of your most notable links, and as many as possible. Because if you have made it this far, the next question podcast hosts does, Who are you? And can I find out more information from you? And you want to make that as easy as possible for them.
Teresa:
And I have to say the link thing is so important because the very first thing I do when we get an application or when someone asked to come on, is I want to go and see who they are. I want to see what their profile looks like. I want to see what their follow account is. It’s not that I specifically go for big follow accounts, but I just want to see like, are they engaged on social?
Are they doing stuff? Are they showing up being the person they’re telling me they are? Or are they not really doing that? So, and you will be amazed, and I’m sure you won’t be amazed, but the amount of people who don’t put a single link, and then I’ve got to go and Google their name, and then I’ve got to go and dig, and then I’m like, I’m already on the back foot, like, because I’m annoyed that I’m having to waste my time trying to find this [00:25:00] person somewhere online for me just to validate, are they really who they say they are?
so that I can even then put them into the, we have a very like, I guess generic, but it works where I will literally, the emails tend to come into me or I tend to see them and then I will forward them to my assistant and say, yes, no, or later in the year. And then she has kind of templated things. And the no is always really lovely.
It’s always like, there is so much that goes into why we have people on the podcast. You know, it might’ve been that we’ve just had someone on with that subject. It might be that we don’t talk about that subject. It might be you’re just not the right fit for it, but I’m really sorry. You know, it’s a no from this one, but we always get back to everybody.
And one thing I can tell you that’s so surprising and annoying is the email that I reply on isn’t my email because it’s my assistant’s email, right? The amount of people who then follow up going, we haven’t heard, we haven’t heard. No, you have. We got back to everyone. Like it just wasn’t [00:26:00] from me, but if you have done your home, like she would have hit reply on the email they sent.
So it’s really frustrating anyway. I went down a little rabbit hole of, you know, but yeah, so let me just clarify. So yeah. We talked about writing that it’s a pitch in the subject line. I really like that. So I know straight away because I have been duped and gone, Oh, someone wants me as a guest on a podcast.
And then I’m gone. Oh no, they haven’t. This is someone else’s. Do your research, do your research and make sure that you have done some specific stuff. Are you doing like the research stuff that you talked about? It was like, you know, in this episode, you spurred me on to do this. Is that coming before the story or after the story?
Alice:
It’s coming before the story. So it’s like, it’s the personalized side of things. So it’s like a, Hi Teresa, I just listened to your episode on blah, blah, blah. I especially liked it. And that’s, you know, it’s two lines. It’s not nothing long. It’s just that you kind of want to like warm the pitch up before you jump into it because it is a cold pitch.
And [00:27:00] the goal here is to make it feel as warm as possible. You don’t like, you don’t want them to look at it and think that this was just mass sent out to everyone. you immediately want them to think, Oh, you actually do know who I am and you’ve engaged my content.
Teresa:
Yeah. Yeah. Then you do a story, something that’s going to engage in them and with something.
And I love the social proof aspect on the end. So, you know, telling a story about, you know, being hit over the head with a file or whatever. And I talked about it over here. So I haven’t just made this up just to get on your podcast. Then your speaking points with action orientated, yeah, was it action orientated?
Alice:
Yeah, like action based speaking points.
So that’s like now, what is the value that people are going to get up? So you’ve got this story about being hit over the head with a file by your boss, whatever. And now it’s like, okay, this takeaway of this conversation is like, how can women deal with workplace bullying? And here’s like, the action based points that they can start implementing to deal with something similar happening to them at work.
Teresa:
And [00:28:00] then the who you are and some links and things. Anything else?
Alice:
And now we just have a call to action. So it’s just like, are you interested in this conversation? Are you interested in having me in this podcast? And then follow ups of course, because a lot of the acceptances will only come from follow apps.
People are busy.
Teresa:
And that is something that, like I said, we, I pride myself that we are very good at replying to everybody and fairly quickly, and especially now because we’re already scheduled up to, well, we have enough interviews for at least another five, six months. So a lot of the emails back now are apply.
And when I look again, which won’t be for a while, you will be in the mix. So it’s not a, yes, you’re going to be a guest, but. I obviously think you’re interesting enough to get you to apply in the first place, or no, it’s a straight no, or it’s a no, come back to me in six months time and then I’ll see how I feel then type thing.
Okay, so let’s say we’ve done all of these. and we are getting nowhere. [00:29:00] Okay. Like, and the thing is, right. I sat here and I was about to say, right, we’re getting nowhere. We’ve said, but I know someone would have sent four of these and gone, I’m getting nowhere. Okay. So how many should I be sending before I go, this is not working.
Alice:
Yeah, that’s a great question. And I’ll tell you what I did when I really took off my writing career is I set a goal of getting 100 rejections. And I did that because a community of women and a Facebook group had that it was like a rejection Facebook group and I was seeing people much more qualified than me.
It was like many years more experienced than me, people were writing for like the New York Times and like very big publications. Doing this rejection goal. So I was like, okay, like clearly I’m not a loser. I’m getting rejected because these people are chasing. And so that hundred rejections was a very good way for me to practice my craft because I became for the first time in my life, very focused on outputs and not on the results.[00:30:00]
And obviously it started getting acceptances, but I really learned how to pitch well. So with podcasting, I would, I would perhaps. Push something similar. I mean, for my retainer clients, we send 40 pitches a month. And if a client’s got a very high acceptance rates and we’re pitching competitive podcasts, it’ll be like a 20 percent acceptance rate.
Usually we’re looking at like 10 percent acceptance is for if ever pitching competitive, obviously you pitch like very niche podcasts as much easier. So. That’s someone who’s like, we’ve been doing this for years and we know exactly about the craft. So if you’re still learning, like how to hone your pitching and your writing skills, I would go for a hundred, obviously not going to do a hundred in a month.
Maybe you’re doing like 20 in a month, but you’re going to be learning every step of the way, because as you’re sending those out and you’re, as you’re getting rejected or as you’re getting accepted or as you’re getting feedback, you might be like, Oh, maybe I need to, make [00:31:00] this a little bit more interesting because that’s kind of what happened to me when I said the goal is like every time I got rejected from a publication I slightly tweaked my pitch and it just got better and better and better so you don’t want to set a small rejection goal you don’t want to be like and you get five rejections because you’re not really going to learn a lot from that.
Teresa:
And you’re going to get them fairly quick
Alice:
And then it’s like, okay, now I clearly should not pitch because I got my five rejections.
Whereas you want to set it to be big enough that it really challenges you and it takes you some time because then you’re constantly improving and tweaking. And if you’re, you know, you sent those and you got no traction, which I find very hard to believe, then I would really And perhaps even before that, ask someone who you know is a good writer to take a look, perhaps people who are podcast hosts to take a look and say, yeah, can you give me some feedback?
Like what is missing from this? What would you want to do differently? Because, you know, you want to improve the strategy and make it a better pitch overall.
Teresa:
Yeah. [00:32:00] Yeah. And it’s interesting that I was just thinking then what, what makes me look at someone’s pitch more favorably. And interestingly enough, and I know this isn’t going to be helpful to lots of people, but this is something to aspire to.
Someone pitched and they listed some of the podcasts they’d been on and they listed a really big podcast. And I was like, Oh, hang on a minute. So I went on, I clicked on the link and the irony of it was they, It was like a recorded coaching call and they were one of the questions and I’m like, yeah, no, that’s, that’s definitely not what I was expecting there.
But I was thinking like, that’s the credibility piece. Like, I really love it when I see someone who’s been on another really good one. So it’s almost like in my head, if you could work really hard to get on one or two really good podcasts, then that can almost serve you for the others.
Alice:
Yeah, and your social proof holds so much weight.
And so we, we [00:33:00] do this with our retainer clients. It’s like you get on a big podcast. Like I just had a client. He has like 2000 followers get on the top 0. 05 percent podcast. So that means there’s hundreds of thousands of downloads. So for the next month, our strategy was to pitch. The podcast that that host had been guests on mentioning that he’s looking forward to his own upcoming recording.
Even better when the recording is out because you can be like, you know, I spoke on blah blah blah and put the link. But when you do that, it’s like, you’re just immediately credible in their brain. They’re just like, well, so and so.
Teresa:
They wouldn’t, yeah, they wouldn’t have them on there if they weren’t any good.
So they must be good. Yeah. One thing I get asked about is like Finding the podcast to pitch. You’ve just mentioned there, like a podcast was in the point, whatever percentage of podcasts. What’s the website or where do people go and find that information to see how credible a podcast is?
Alice:
Yeah. Podcasting is very hard.
Podcasts are very hard to measure the credibility [00:34:00] because we don’t get to see the download metrics. So we do two things. We look at Apple ratings, which is also very flawed because sometimes like They’re very engaged listeners who are just not reading the podcast. And then we look at listen notes. So listen notes gives like a percentage score.
So it’ll say, this is a top 1 percent or top 2 percent, top 0. 05%. I can’t even guarantee that how they score is accurate, but it’s like one of the very few metrics we have. And it does. I mean, like the ones that are very competitive, I know a big show is like, I, the hosts have hundreds of thousands of followers.
Like I’m sure. Yeah. They don’t have small shows. So I don’t know how that’s scored.
Teresa:
And at least it’s consistent. So however it scores, it’s scoring everyone the same. So yeah, hopefully that gives you an idea. Okay, awesome.
Alice:
You did ask, how do you find podcasts? And so I think that’s something that would be helpful just to share, like, as a very, very quick way to find [00:35:00] podcasts.
That Perfect for you is to find someone in your business niche. So find someone who does something serves a similar audience to you essentially. So let’s say you serve women entrepreneurs, like I might go like if I serve as a publicist woman entrepreneurs, I might go look you up Teresa because I know that your business model serves women entrepreneurs.
And then I can see all the podcasts that you’ve been on. And then I now have a list of people to pitch because you speak to the same audience as me. And when you do this, you really want to think of like, who is someone who’s a couple of steps ahead of me? Because you don’t want someone who has not been on podcasts because it’s not going to get you nowhere.
But someone who is serving a similar audience, but it’s just like few steps more visible than you are. And obviously you don’t want to go for like Brene Brown because she’s going to be on this giant podcast and it’s going to be very hard to get on those podcasts. Like go for it, but you will just get more rejected.
Like that’s just the reality of pitching bigger shows.
Teresa:
Yeah. And I think that’s the thing, like [00:36:00] for me, yes, think about the bigger ones, think about getting those really kind of cornerstone visibility pieces in. However, I think there are some natural steps that you take to get to that. And also my concern is that when you pitch somewhere really big, really fast, you haven’t honed your skills, right?
So let’s say by some amazing fluke that you write this phenomenal pitch and they say, yes. and then you get on there and you have not honed your skills and either you deliver a not very good episode which they then don’t put out or you deliver a not great episode which they then put out and it doesn’t put you in the best of light.
So even though I know everyone would love and give their right arm tomorrow to get on like the biggest podcast in their industry and yes that would be amazing, I do think there’s also a lot to be said for honing your skills, working your way up and doing [00:37:00] those smaller things where if you mess up, it doesn’t matter too much.
Like, yeah, you know, you get a chance to rehearse.
Alice:
Yeah, that’s such a great point. And I think that that speaks to another huge benefit of talking on podcasts is you’re practicing your delivery, you’re practicing your speaking skills. And like, I, I have grown in so much confidence from talking on podcasts.
And I’m so glad that many of my first interviews we’re on small podcasts. Cause I think I remember getting on like someone who’s quite credible in my industry last year. And, you know, she’d coached a lot of very well known people and it was a great interview and I thought our conversation was great because like she did a lot of research and it was very smart and intelligent.
But when she asked me at the end of the interviews to talk about what I’m selling, like what, why people can find me and how they can work with me. I had no conviction in selling. Like I just, yeah. Like, like, because as you said, selling feels sleazy. So when I listened back to the [00:38:00] recording, I just like raced through it.
I just like, there was, you know, before my speaking was like measured and it was like informative. It was authoritative. And then the minutes I was selling my stuff, I just like, it was like, I was like trying to like run to the finish line and get through this as quickly as possible. And I was like, I need to practice that.
Like I need to practice being a better seller. Like people need to feel relaxed and calm and trusting of what I’m saying. And not like I’m like some energizer bunny trying to like quickly get through something as fast as possible. And so that was a huge podcast because it wasn’t that big. I get quite a few people listen to us and I did get like a lot of people downloading my assets.
But if it was like the biggest in the industry, it would have been such a waste.
Teresa:
It’s such a waste. Exactly. Exactly. So I have one final question for you because I’m conscious of our time. You’ve just started your podcast and one of your first guests is Neil Patel. How did you get Neil Patel on the podcast?
Alice:
I [00:39:00] actually got him through an introduction. Two of my guests I got through introductions. I’m friends with someone who has a fairly big podcast and she offered to do some introductions for me.
Teresa:
That is amazing. And often that for me has been my very first two guests were Pat Flynn and Amy Porterfield because I went and did a personal introduction myself to them and I built a relationship with them and then they came on and was my guest.
And then from that person, I then went, who do they know? When Amy’s been on, would you be on? And of course people went, yes, of course, because Amy had been on. So yeah, I was, I was very jealous. I’ve never actually asked Neil to be on the podcast. I would love him to be on the podcast. I dunno why I’ve not asked him.
Maybe that’s me slightly not wanting to be rejected, but we’ll see. I have asked Seth Godin and he sent me a very lovely reply saying No, but. I asked him, which was great. And I, and as I go back to the point, kind of at the beginning of, in fact, just to summarize, I think [00:40:00] from what Alice was saying in the beginning, we shouldn’t be annoyed that we’re not good at rejection and we don’t want rejection.
Like that makes perfect sense. Why our brains go, we’re going to do everything in our power, not to be rejected. Also, not only are our brains hardwired to not be rejected, but if you’re a woman listening to this, then there’s a fair chance that We really aren’t set up to want rejection because we have no example of it around us.
And that one of the things that we can do is really work hard to make sure that we are flexing that rejection muscle. And Alice gave us some great kind of bullet points as to how to go and pitch. And also the other thing of making a numbers game. And I talk about this a lot. And I talk about when we talk about goal setting, We’re measuring the action we take, not whether we get the goal.
So exactly what Alice said, set yourself a goal of asking a hundred podcasts, no matter what the outcome is, detach yourself from that completely [00:41:00] in the sense of don’t let that stop you or paralyze you. But the other thing that I wrote down at the very beginning was rejection equals learning.
Alice:
Yeah, I love that.
What a beautiful summary.
Teresa:
Well, thank you. I appreciate that. It was a great, it’s a great episode. There’s been so much in that. I know that so many people are going to get lots from this. This is something that I talk about constantly. Visibility is very much a cornerstone of what I teach, so this is all music to my ears.
Alice, where can people come and find you and discover more about you?
Alice:
So if you want to put yourself in an easy way, you could go to hustlingwriters.com/templates, and then there’s the actual pitch templates and the guide that covers some of these key points that we have, so you don’t have to memorize them all.
And if you want to hear rejection stories from successful authors and entrepreneurs, you can go to my podcast, which is called My Rejection Story.
Teresa:
Love it. Thank you so much, Alice. It’s been a pleasure to have you on the podcast.
Alice:
Thank you so much, Teresa. This was such a great conversation.
