How to break free from manipulative marketing with Dr. Michelle Mazur

Today’s episode of the podcast is an interview with Dr. Michelle Mazur all about bro marketing, and some of the very unpleasant tactics that people use to sell their products and services.

Michelle is a messaging expert who combines the tools of successful social movements, with the qualitative research skills she earned in her Communications PhD to help brilliant business owners craft their powerful, captivating message. She has also authored The 3 Word Rebellion, is host of the Rebel Uprising podcast and is featured in Fast Company and Entrepreneur and Inc.

I learned so much from my time with Michelle and this is an episode not to be missed! We talked all about what bro marketing is and how it got started, the ways I am changing how I market and sell in my own business and why we need to redefine how we look at success.



  • The things to look out for that will help you spot bro marketing when you are making an investment
  • What signs you should look out for to determine if bro marketing is lurking in your business
  • Why you shouldn’t work with someone just because of the money they are making, or the money they are promising you will make
  • What messaging is, what it does for your business and why you need to focus on it
  • How to use your messaging to lead and sell with expertise and credibility
  • How to know what to say and use storytelling to build an argument for your work
  • How to balance being nurturing and friendly to your audience, and sell to them as a business owner
  • How we equate people who have big audiences with success, and the need to redefine that



How speaking about what you do in a clear and captivating way is the key to reaching the people you could help the most and the key to making more money in your business.



  • How as a consumer you can protect yourself so that you're confident you're making wise investments
  • How as a business owner you can sell an online product in an online world, without using bro marketing tactics
  • Why six and seven figure launches can often be a vanity metric, and why you should focus on the life you want and not the money you earn






Teresa: Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of the podcast. I am so excited for you to listen to this one. I've just be listening back. 'cause you know, I batch and this was done a while back now, which is really odd, but amazing that it's coming out now, considering the episode I did last week, if you haven't listened to that one, then go back and listen. It was basically talking about why you don't want an online business.

Not saying everyone doesn't want one, but just some truth. And then this was coming up, which is crazy timing because it's so good. So this is a conversation with the amazing Dr. Michelle. All about bro marketing and some of the very unpleasant tactics that people use. Now, interestingly enough, there was a time in my world where I was getting into this, where I was like, okay, that's the way we do it.

And that's the way I taught it. And now I'm sure if you went back and looked at some of my earliest stuff and now I might contradicted myself and. Although, I don't like doing that because I like being very transparent and honest, but I've learned, I learned the difference and it took me ages and I spent a lot of money getting understanding of what this looks like in practice.

And I've been sold to in so many different ways and had so many different tactics. And it's, it's a hard lesson to learn because it costs you money. And I think I. Like I said over time, I have now developed and changed what my messages and what I'm saying. And like I said, that might contradict some of my earliest stuff, but that's because I've learned.

And I understand now and I don't like it and it doesn't fit with my values. And I don't think I was strong enough in the earlier days to go, oh, this doesn't feel nice. Do I really have to say this? Or is this the way we do it? Or is this like, it feels like I'm tricking them into buying something from me, which is things like why my cart is always open now because I am there when you are ready.

Like, I love the fact that I just get, you know, wake up on a random day and I've got a new member. Like, I love that. I love that I'm there when I have. I give you the opportunity to make the decision yourself. I am not forcing you into going, you must join or otherwise, you're going to miss out. So this conversation, I have to apologize a little bit because I think I just get into this point where I'm like, oh, and they do this.

Oh, and they do this. So passionate about it. Like that's I was just the back I was doing, like listening to myself thinking. Less speak Teresa, like what the hell? Anyway. So she was great and I loved it and she was so refreshing and it was just so nice to hear. So yeah, I am. I'm really excited about this episode. I am not going to talk any longer, uh, link up to everything about her and how amazing she is in the show notes. But here she is.

Okay. I am super excited today to welcome to the podcast Dr. Michelle Mazur. Michelle, how are you doing?

Michelle: I am great. And I'm so excited to be here with you.

Teresa: Oh, me too. I was just saying that before we got on, I was going through Instagram like yeah, yeah, yeah. Like this is going to be such a fun conversation. But we start, exactly the same way every time by getting you to introduce yourself to my audience and tell them, how you got to do the thing that you do today?

Michelle: Ooh, that's such a good question. So I run a company called communication rebel and we specialize in messaging. So I created a framework called the three word rebellion, and it's really about how do you create your own start with why your own five second rule. And then what are the key messages you need to get people to buy into that, that you can use in your marketing, your sales, your PR efforts. So that you can be radically consistent and get known for your work and create demand for your work. So that is what I'm focused on, how I got here. So this is my 10th year in business. Which I'm very excited about.

Teresa: Congratulations.

Michelle: Yeah. And my background was I'm an academic by training.

So I have a PhD in communication, long story short hated the politics of academia was not a good time. Decided to I was teaching at the university of Hawaii. I moved to Seattle where I am now. Went into market research. Realised, I love research, but I didn't like being an employee wasn't particularly good at it.

And I ended up starting this company because of friends said to me, you know, you have all of this information about communications stuck in your head. And he's like, you should be doing something with that. You should be helping people with everything, you know. And I'm like, oh, he was just started broad start something.

So my business started as a blog. I originally was a public speaking coach because I loved speaking. Then I realized later I really did not like this professional speaking industry, but that's a story for another day.

Teresa: Okay, save that for another podcast.

Michelle: But everything I was doing was really focused around how do you construct this keynote speech?

Like, what's the core message, what's the change? How do you market this so that people actually want to hire you? And I began to realize that my clients like, wow, my clients are using what we do together in lots of different ways. Like I'm seeing our message pop up on their website, their home page, you know, they would do like a launch sequence around there in what we created.

And I'm like, Ooh, I see a bigger opportunity by going broader and really focusing on helping people powerfully communicate the value their business is creating, and especially for my rebels who are doing things a little bit differently, and especially for the people who don't love the current online state of business with the manipulative tactics and kind of the sleazy sales tactics as well. So that became my focus. And now I've been doing again, I've been working with the three word rebellion framework for almost five years.

Teresa: Amazing. And like, I feel like talking to you it's like, you're gonna wrap me up and go, it's safe here. It's safe.

Michelle: It is.

Teresa: This is the online space I'd been looking for. You know, my background is traditionally marketing. I have a degree in it. Spent 16 odd years in it now. And I came into my own business.

I didn't normally do an intro about myself, but kind of leads the question. I'm with the business. And I created an agency. So I had my own agency. We did other people's marketing and I bet like, you love speaking. Yes. Going up stage. Seeing those people. It was amazing. And all the online experts and all the people that I went and learned from were doing that they would have been seen as the expert.

And I was like, I want to be that I want to be the person who's standing there and telling, you know, the world I know a lot of stuff, I've done a lot of stuff. And I still look at the online world and I was like, actually, I really love this because now I'm not just working with companies who could afford me.

I've got a lot of experience. I was an expensive agency to go to and I wanted to work. I loved helping small businesses and I'm a complete end of the server like I constantly to deliver, because I see things it's like, it's the easiest breathing thing. It's like, someone comes to me, tells me about their business plan like ting ting.

And my brain just wakes up like an outlet. So we came into this online world and a really kind of. This is brilliant. Like what an opportunity, because this was like six years ago when, especially over in the UK, it was not as big as it is. I would say that's still in the same today.

Michelle: Yeah. I would agree with that from what I can see.

Teresa: You guys are ahead of us on this.

And so I came into it thinking how wonderful it was and then slowly over time. I wanted to like scrub my skin with bleach.

And then I was watching these people who didn't know anywhere near as much as I knew. Weren't as kind of like didn't care. Like they literally didn't care about their customers, about their audience. About their success and were selling this stuff. And were more successful and still the more successful than I am and to this day, in some instances.

And I just thought, How can people not see this? How can like people not see what they're doing? And this is something that you've obviously jumped fully on board. So yeah. Let me start by just to say like we, I went and we looked at the podcast and what the word bro marketing came up.

What do you mean for my audience about bro marketing?

Michelle: Yes. So bro marketing is the use of psychological triggers. Like we think about scarcity, social proof authority in order to manipulate people and take away their consent so that you make a sale. So that, and you see it all the time in the online world. So it can include things like, you know, the, those scarcity pushes those disappearing bonuses, the rags to riches stories, the really income-driven testimonials with like zero contacts around them.

All of that would fall into bro marketing. But at the end of the day, it's based in manipulation and coercion with the goal of shutting down critical thinking. So you're no longer making the best purchasing decision based on what your business needs. You're making it on things like fear and fear of missing out.

And, oh my gosh, this is going to be the thing that helps my business forward.

Teresa: This is the golden ticket that, yes, I need this. I can't be successful without this.

Michelle: Yes. Exactly. Exactly.

Teresa: So this is something that I have seen, like the worst of the worst. And there are some like that who are disgusting. Like literally shocking.

I can't believe people are buying from them but they seem to be very successful and they're doing all the things like we've seen the adverts went someone sat in their jets. I see that a lot. Uh, we see them stood outside either stood outside the jet or in the car, leaning against that like crazy evasive car or some crazy amazing holiday, or like all these things.

And, and then we've seen like some people who are, who seem pretty good, but underlying there's like some stuff, but oh yeah. My concern in mind, like I think what I want to get from this interview. I started watching this guy on YouTube called, oh, it's gonna drive me crazy. If I was named it'll come to me in a bit.

Oh, Contrapreneur that's what it's called. Do you know him?

Michelle: No, I do not.

Teresa: Okay. So go check him out on YouTube and he basically calls out Contrapreneurs and he calls like the big ones. Like there are some pretty big names uh, in this space. And he calls them out and basically says like he has, he has Contrapreneur bingo.

It's very funny. So it's like, is there a value stack? Yeah, there's a value stack. It's

like, he is, they're like the rags to riches story. Yeah. Like, you know, how did you tick up all the bingo things? Cause they said all the things. So I was watching this and I was like, oh my God, this is so good. And then suddenly the fear like started to hit me into. Oh God, how much of this do I do? And how do I not?

It's hard. How do I not do it, but how do I still sell in this industry? Because I'm up against people who are using these tactics and sorry, and I understand this, like, my head is just explainable is that I'm literally on the screen in front of me. I've got your Instagram and it's, you've put a post up and I have a story about this that you can have a profitable course of even no audience.

Absolute rubbish.

Michelle: Yeah. No.

Teresa: You know, you've put on their truth. Courses convert a 1 or 3% you need a massive audience. And my, one of my friends was watching someone fairly big doing a webinar, talking about courses, and they gave an example of so-and-so who has lists of 150 people.

And he launched making $30,000 in his first go. And then of course my friend messaged me. “Oh my God, did you see this? Like, this is amazing.” And I'm like, yeah, but they didn't tell you, like, did they have a Facebook group? Did they have an amazing podcast where they, this thing, like, you don't know all those things as well. So like I've just literally like vomited loads of words that yeah.

Michelle: Yes. Yes.

Teresa: How do we, how do we, how do we stop people buying from these people and how do we hopefully, very genuine, real marketers who can genuinely help people selling online product did an online world without using these tactics.

Michelle: Yeah. So to, okay. So I want to pick this apart in two different ways, because there's the, how do we stop buying this stuff?

How do we stop falling for this stuff? And as we were talking about my friend and podcast host Maggie Patterson, and I have a whole podcast on this called Duped: The Dark Side of Online Business, which has really focused into like how you as a consumer can protect yourself. So that you're making sure you're doing wise investments. Because once you start seeing it, you're like, oh, I can see what's happening here because a lot of it is very, very subtle.

Um, and women do it too. It's not just men. And so I think it's. And we kind of know when it's happening in our potties too. It's like, I swear like our, all of our recommendations are like, you need to slow down and critically think about your purchases. But I think it's that just getting that awareness of like, oh, they're using scarcity or, oh, there's that rags to riches story or, oh, look at all this luxury lifestyle.

They're showing me and the branded photo shoots and all of these things, or the high ticket, everything like everything's high ticket this year. And I'm like, that doesn't mean anything. To meaning once to her. So we can become aware in those ways. But I think the trickier question that actually has a pretty simple, but not easy answer is how do we divest our own businesses from this and still make money.

Because here's what you shouldn't do. I had a client recently who learned all about this, and then she stripped all of it out from her business. She was like, Nope, I'm not doing this anymore. She was like, she took all of it out and then she stopped making sales and I'm like, okay.

Okay. So, so yes. And you have to do it slowly. Maybe it's like, you're getting rid of a countdown timer. You're changing. Your about me on the sales page, but bro marketing works. So you just can't be like, wow, I'm done taking it all away.

Teresa: I want to be like, I'm done. Cause I, it makes me so mad, like, but you're right.

I've got people who I know who are so much, like do their so much more than I do, and they are more successful and it's really annoying.

Michelle: Yeah. I see where the focus is and how, how you need to change things. Is that if we want people to think critically about the purchasing decisions they make, then we, as the business owners need to focus on the message and building an argument for why they need this work.

So you're giving them the information you need. You're advocating for your work. You're doing it with very specific languaging. You have, you know, you've really thought about your message because bro marketing is just a specific type of messaging. That's all it is. And it's so much easier because you don't have to think about how to talk about your thing.

Like you can just use these swipe files and these templates, and then you don't have to worry about it because little manipulative tricks, do the selling for you. But when you move away from bro marketing it's all of a sudden like, okay, how do I make an argument for the work that I'm doing? Because I'm sure you see this too.

Most of the messaging in the online space. It's terrible. It's just vagaries, like more income, more money, more impact, um, build a business you'll love, build, uh, scale your business without burning out. Like none of those mean anything and everybody's using them. So I don't know how to like, distinguish one business owner from another, when you're all talking about the same thing.

And so then it's really that focus is like, how can I do this in a unique way that empathizes, instead of pushes on pain points, like empathizes with my people, shows that I really understand what their struggle is. Talking specifically about their struggle instead of just like, oh, I can't get clients.

It's like, okay, that's that is a problem. But why? Like what's behind that is that you're not putting yourself out there. You don't know how to sell? People don't want what you're selling. Like how can you be more specific about those problems and really show how your work actually solves that problem so that they can make this decision to push, buy, or book a call with you.

Teresa: Yeah. Yeah. So good. Cause it is funny. We do fall in that trap of like, we've got to say these things and we've got to sound this way. And, and we think that everyone wants to scale and everyone wants to like, not be overwhelmed. And like you said, when you actually look at it, like I've looked at stuff before, when, when people are to work with me and I work with people in the online space and when they've come to me and they've given me their sales page for me to look at and I get to the ends, I'm not entirely sure what the hell they're doing for me.

It just gets a bit, like, know that there's a problem there. Like you need to make it a lot clearer for me. And yes. What did they like? I'm interested to take your opinion on this is like, honestly, this is like therapy for me.

Michelle: Excellent.

Teresa: Like even if people out there and I noticed you had samples, these people but basically sell people to do the thing that they became successful doing.

I know someone who bought a course, uh, from a very big course person, uh, looked at it like the course was how to create an online course, did the course, and then sold a course on how to do an online course.

Michelle: As I see that all the time.

Teresa: Then they had actually never been successful doing that thing. Like, How do you.

This is where I struggle. I come from a degree and 16 years’ experience. There is very little I haven't marketed. I have done all the things in all the places and I genuinely feel like I can make a genuine difference when I speak to businesses. Well, like I had an agency and we did it like, and yet there's some people out there who go, oh, I can help you with the online space because they had just gotten the online space.

How do you, how do you put that credibility across the I'm not trying to teach you the business I've got, unless you want that business. I'm trying to teach you from an education point of view.

Michelle: Yes. Yes. I mean, I think it's about leading with your expertise and being very clear about that. And I know, especially for women, it's really hard for us to be, to say things like I have a PhD in communication and I have 25 years’ experience and I have created this framework.

Like I have done all of these things that make me infinitely credible to help you. And it is about leading with that credibility, I mean, and not like leading, leading, but it needs to be part of your message. Like we can't shy away from what makes us an expert or, and I mean, and then there's also the imposter syndrome that maybe you've only been in business for five years.

But you've done a lot of work and you're getting good results. You're styling expert. Right. And it's just so much easier to be like, well, I'll just tell this rags to riches story, even though it's maybe not really true and I'm embellishing it, but yeah, there is a lot of. You know, like I had a six figure launch.

Now I'll teach you how to do six figure launches. I've never done it for anyone else, but only myself. So let me now teach you how to do this thing. And these are my steps. And if you don't follow my steps, then I can't really help you because I couldn't troubleshoot. I don't know how to really run other types of launches other than the one I did.

So I think as consumers, we have to really be aware of that when people are like, I did this for myself and look at how much money I'm making and look at me on my, on my fancy vacation or in Bali, because I make so much money. And it's just like, just because. I feel like the, your revenue is not the reason why people should work with you. And if that's what you're leading with, then you've got other problems in your business.

Teresa: That's a good point. You don't work with someone in any other space. You don't go to like a doctor or like I get reflexology. I don't go. How much do you make making me doing reflexology? Oh, you, you made loads. I'm coming to you.

Do you know what I mean? Like people's salaries when we go into other places and yet for some reason in this space, I want us I want to use the word garish and, and then I do, and I don't find a garish. I have no problems with money. I'm very honest about the size of my membership, how long it's taken me to build it.

Like, because it's not a huge and that, so, yeah, like I, you know, do I want more, of course, I want more. But I'm not willing to sell my soul to the devil and my friends and I or a couple of my business friends and I often have these conversations where if at one of them just, I literally searched someone's about it.

And they actually said to me, How do these people sleep at night? I don't know. And then she said, well, does that mean we have to be like this? If we want that success. And I'm really hoping, you're going to say, no, we have to good sell. Like there are, you know, is there anybody that you can think of that is doing this really well and not doing the sleazy sales horribleness.

Michelle: Okay. So I think there's a few things we need to tease apart because there are people doing it well. They're probably just not names, you know. Right. Like I've been in business for 10 years. I am highly profitable. And if, and if you're listening today, you probably didn't know I existed before today.

And that is fine, but we equate these people with big audiences as having massive success. And it was interesting. I was listening to a podcast the other day and she's a multi seven figure business owner. And she was going through her 2020 numbers. And what I realized is she paid half of her revenue to Facebook for ads, and she was only paying herself 8% of what she was taking home.

So I believe we really need to redefine what we think is success. It's not how much like gross revenue your business creates. It's like, how much are you paying yourself? How much of that are you keeping for yourself? Because I feel like there is, I feel like your gross revenue number is just a vanity metric.

So when you start focusing on. All right. Well, and then the other big lies that they're someday going to sell their business, which probably is not going to happen. They do not have the business foundations in place. They're pretty much like the face of their brand. They definitely have a multimillion dollar lifestyle business, but I don't see how any, like, so some of these businesses actually sell to someone else and then they take it over.

Teresa: Yeah, not an online brand. Well, I sell my business based on me and my brain. That is not sellable like. You know, you can't take that in my head somehow. You can't do that.

Michelle: Like if you have an app. Great. You can definitely sell that. But if you're like creating courses like, that's not actually the big asset you think it is. So, yeah. So we definitely have all of these like lifestyle businesses.

So why don't we start thinking about our lifestyle first and defining successes? Like how much do I want to pay myself so that I can afford the life that I want. And then back into how much your business needs to make. Because what you will find is your businesses and need to make as much in order to support the lifestyle that you actually want.

Not the one that's market to you. I think part of that is it's like redefining what successes. And I know a lot of people that no one would know. Like I think about my friend, Tara Newman, over at the bowl profit academy or my cohost Maggie Patterson of small business boss. They run wildly profitable businesses without doing any of this BS.

Teresa: Yeah. That's really good to hear. Isn't it? Like you said, the problem is, you know, you see other people doing it and you think I've got to do it, or you find yourself. What I find is I find myself falling into some of the traps of believing that that's the only way I can do it. So for instance, I have a membership and it has an open and close cart scenario. That is a tactic that is a kind of time-sensitive you got to join.

And I've been constantly thinking about the idea of, I want it just open, like if you're ready, I want you, if you're not, you're not.

Like I want those kind of like in my heart and in my kind of like being it's this, but then of course you, you know, and I remember being, believe me, I've spent some money with some people flipping wish I hadn't.

Michelle: Oh, we all have.

Teresa: I remember being at some like next level group with some are very big in the online space who is really is not that nice. Now I've since discovered. And I said that I'd got this membership that was open, always open and literally got almost physically beat around the head. As to how stupid could I be? And it has to be closed and you can't have it open all the time. That's not how you will be successful. So I was there.

I changed the model because I was like, Okay. And now I'm like looking back again, thinking, you know, I didn't want to do that. I don't want to sell like that. But then I've got to find a way which I can market it. And I can like sell it without doing that strategy, which is a well-known strategy.

Michelle: Yeah. I mean, it's really, it's very interesting because there's, there's the flip side of this.

It's like, well, if you don't have the urgency, people will buy or you might be closed. Somebody joins your email list and they really want to join. And it's like, oh, it's not launching for another 3 months. Yeah. And then when three months comes, they've already found another solution, so they don't buy anyway. So I'm all like, I feel like you could be losing people on either side of that.

And then it's about like, just how do you, like if you decide to keep it open, one thing, one thing I think is really interesting is tracking how long once you do keep it open, does it take for people to actually join your email list, to buying into the membership? I just did, like, I had a little email temper tantrum the other day.

I was like, nobody buys from my list. And my sales coach was like, okay, go back and look at your last like 16 clients. And I'm like, okay, cool. And so I went back and I'm looking and it's like, yeah, three people weren't on my list. But what I found is that. The valley goes like 60% of the people who became my clients bought within three months.

Like a majority of those bought within two weeks of joining my email list. And I am selling a $5,000 high touch service.

Teresa: Oh, I like how you just said that. Like I can't, I'm just going to, I'm totally spilling that. Because I have a $5,000 high touch service instead of high ticket item, like is one-to-one working with me.

That's my good. And it works because I'm good at this stuff. It's not to say the spotlight is that like.

Michelle: You are excellent at what you do.

Teresa: It's really hard to say those words and but either, like that's amazing. Isn't it? When you actually went back and looked and saw that these people were, and it's a high touch service.

Michelle: Yes. It's high touch and high value. And I put a lot of time into, and it produces a great outcome and a great deliverable. So, and it, and it, but like when I realized that I'm like, oh, and I know people would do other things, like they would read the three word rebellion book or listen, hear me on duped or, or my rebel uprising podcast.

So there was ways they were accessing me without being on my list. But like once they joined the list, the vast majority of them, or really, really, really ready to work with me. And so I think, cause I feel like we over nurture and these internet people teach us to over nurture like, oh, you've got like five pieces of valuable content for one ask.

Really do you need to do that?

Teresa: We are fool. Like when you say the nurture, explain to my audience, like, are we talking about emails? Are we talking about how would you see them over nurturing?

Michelle: Oh, I see all of it. So it's sending all of the valuable emails without making an ask. And it's posting really helpful things on Instagram without ever telling people how they could work with you.

It's doing like webinars and masterclasses with not a very solid ask to them. Uh, you know, and so it's like you, you're constantly creating all this like super valuable content, but people don't know how to work with you if they would, if they wanted to, or you're doing like an ask, like once a quarter.

And I, and, and also I think there's the way we talk to people. I just had a podcast episode on this and it was based on a client. I had, she sent me an email. She got in response to an email. She sent her a list and she's like, why is this person acting like, they're my best friend. And I read the email and I'm like, Cause you're presenting yourself as a friend. Like be more of the expert that you are and less of the friend, like reframing the story you're telling is like, I have a process to work through this and I can teach you this process is way different than like sharing your story and a valuable takeaway from it and being all friend like.

Teresa: Okay. Okay. So I need to like dig into this a bit, because this is really tricky. Like. Like, I, I like to think I'm very personable. I do tell lots of stories. I talk to my audience quite a lot, like a friend. So, How, how do I balance that? How do I balance the, like, I am actually really a nice approachable person and I am the expert and maybe that's why people didn't buy from me. Maybe I'm being too friendly.

Michelle: Yeah, I think there is this boundary because we're business owners. Like at the end of the day, it's remembering that you are a business owner. The business is a separate entity of you and that business, the job of the business is to make money. And so as the CEO of your business or whatever you call yourself, that is also your job.

So then it just becomes, and sometimes it's not really about changing the tone. But it's the way you tell the story. So then it show, showcases your expertise. So it's like, yeah. This thing, like for me, I tend to have some, like, I tend to develop content around things like conversations I have with my clients, the, um, like the over nurturing one, like that's a great one.

And that, that podcast got a lot of love because people are like, oh crap, I do this. So it's like, if you're telling a story, you have to stop and look at it and be like, all right. What's the goal of me telling the story for my business. Yeah. And then why should the audience care? Right. Cause you have to have those two things at the same time and it's like, yeah, you can tell a story about how.

You used your own process to like coach yourself through something that happened, but you should be highlighting the process.

Teresa: And then how do I, like, how do I do this in moments, but how do we then like do that without feeling that we're selling all the time.

Michelle: So I have this belief and I've been playing with this that you can create value and you can sell at the same time.

So I tend to write these emails where I give people something very valuable but then it naturally just leads to a call to action. So I'm working on this one email right now. Um, let me see if I can pull up the exact question that it is because I was reading Anne Handley's book, everyone writes, and which is a great book, but she had this question that literally shook me and asked if a visitor came to your website without its branding in place, no logo, name, tagline, and so on.

Would he or she recognize it as yours? Like you didn't have pictures, no branding, just your words. Would people still know it's you? And that question should be a punch in the gut. So then how I'm trying to build out this email is I want people to really think about that because I know their work is unique.

No one does it quite the way they do it. And if they're not able to describe that they're going to be passed over. And so I can, you know, I can make them aware of this and how important it is to really have the words. Describe the value and the uniqueness and the beauty and the results of what you do so that you can stand out so that you can be asked on podcasts interviews, right?

So that, you know, like your message is really that unique thumb print on your industry. So I can build that argument and then very easily say at the end, like if you're ready, to create this message, then go here, apply for a call. We'll have a chat to see if this is right for you. That's all it is.

But it's a very juicy. Email. Yes. Yeah. That gives them that makes them think. Yeah. And then it just leads so naturally. And I think if we can think of how to do that more with any of the content we create, how can you create something so valuable that still contains a call to action to your work? And it's not like this afterthought, but it is like the natural conclusion. Um, I mean, that's part of building an argument.

Teresa: That the comes bit is, is that's the key, isn't it like I've interviewed I'm batching interviews. I'd sort of drive a lot of people out, a lot of stuff. And my head is getting full of stuff, things that I need to change that I need to do that. But one thing is on the end of the day is, you know, it's all about that key message.

It's all about like what makes you different? What makes you good? And sometimes like, so I'm going to give you an example. So one of my students has been a member since day one, open my Academy. She joined straight off the bat. Amazing. She pays the lowest because she's been in the longest and obviously the price is an increasing another tactic, but you know the deal.

So she's in there and she gets on a call with me the other day. We have a group coaching calls and she gets on the call and she explains the things are a bit difficult at the moment. And I can identify where she's missing some sales and how she might be able to increase those sales. And I obviously help her on the call, but afterwards I get off the call, I actually ended up interviewing someone and use her as an example.

It didn't say her name or did I say that? Cut it out anyway. Say, you know, what sorts of things should she do in this in her business? Got all this extra information, wrote it all down, jumped on a call with her. One-to-one that's not what she pays. Well far from it. Jumped on a call with a one-to-one then spent like the next hour, just looking at my phone at some different designs of things that she could do to it.

And the next day, one of the other members voice DMed me. He also have the same line of works with me and he's like, we need to help so-and-so like, that was bad yesterday. What can we do to help her? I said, I've already done it. I said, I've done this, done this. And voice message me back. And he was like, “Oh my God, Teresa.”

He said, “You know, there is no one out there that would do that. I love you. I am so proud to call you my friend.” And I was like, I like, she needed help. And I knew I could help her. I'm not saying I did that for every member. Yeah. But like, when I need to, where I can, I will go the extra mile. But how do I turn that?

And like, so for instance, this same person was at an event with me. She was at the event and she was also a member of two other people's memberships who were there. It was me that went terms like coming to hang with me because you should know many people. And it was like, How do I translate that knowing that no one else would do that.

The other membership she's in wouldn't do that. Like not the in-person thing, not the like, actually been thinking about you. And you could do this. Like, how do I translate that into a communication tool to go? This is why you want to work with me.

Michelle: Yeah. I mean, what's really interesting is, I mean, there's that focus on the relationship building and that you're not going to hold something back from someone just because they're not your one-on-one clients.

Right. And so I feel like that could be a difference point for them. So it's, you know, it's thinking about. Okay. What is, what is it? You, the problem you, you help people solve, right? What is that? What's the reason they join. And then adding on to that argument, it's like, you know, most people join whatever your program is called for this, this and this, but what they don't realize is that.

I will go the extra mile. Like I can't get your business out of my head. And so if I have a thought for you, I will share that even if we're not on a call, like, I don't forget you after we get off call. So it's really showing that, oh, like people joined for this reason, but then they get this whole other level of service they just weren't expecting.

Teresa: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's sometimes it's super hard to do that with, and actually I'm going to, I'm going to like through in it, it could be to myself in the fact that like, sometimes some of them is kind of tactics and scenarios are easier to share than be honest about like, trying to say, do you know what I really care?

And without that sounding am I making sense? Like, yeah. You know, sometimes it feels like you're opening up too much by going, hang on. I do this thing and I do that. And I'm ACE and this, and we don't want to say those things because we don't want to sell people how brilliant we are. So it's much easier to go, oh, you got to do it before Tuesday. Cause the doors are closed and the price is going up and you won't get that and other bonus. Do you know what I mean?

Michelle: Yeah. Well, and if you think about it, look at how much more argumentation and making an argument we have to do versus like the price is going up on Tuesday. Very easy, very, very easy, but then thinking strategically about, okay, well, why do members join?

And then. What added benefit they get that they might not even know about. And, you know, and being like, this is a core value of what I do. Like it's like, how do you build that argument? So people are like, oh, she is, she's delivering this in a different way. It's just not a membership. Like everything else. So, I mean, it's a little bit of the storytelling, but just, it's a whole other level of strategy that you have to think about.

That takes, it takes more time. Like I'm not going to lie. Creating a message that actually turns strangers from the internet into clients that actually gets people's attention and makes them curious. It takes more time to create it. But the beautiful thing is like, once you create it, like once you create an email like that, or I create an email, like the one I described, I can use that again.

I will use that again. So it pays, it pays off in the long run to take the time and really think about like, what is my message? How am I going to get people who don't know me? How am I going to get their attention? How am I going to speak to that? And so then they're like, “Oh, I want to follow her. I want to join her email community.”

And then how do I strategically have conversations that build desire and demand for the work I do. And that is all messaging. And I feel, I feel like messaging is like the, like the redheaded stepchild of the online industry, because people, people treat you that go, they'll go to all these marketing programs and how to build a course and how to do a webinar.

And then they all get stuck in the same place because they don't know what to say on the webinar or in the Facebook ad or on their website. And it's like, but if you create the message. In an advance and start putting it out there. You get to refine it over time and it just, it can take, well, the great thing is like, it can really take on a life of its own and you can become known for something.

You don't have to be like super internet famous, but you can be internet famous among the people you most want to be working with.

Teresa: Yeah. And I think you're so right when you talk about, you know, there are lots of successful. Who'd like they're doing this thing. You may not know the names of. And get back down to that.

What is it that I want? I know some of the very successful online business owners who have really stressed, don't like managing all the team who do social media, like, you know, and it's like, so why, why are we doing that? Do you know, Rachel Rogers didn't ask yet? So Rachel does this really great exercise where, and I really like, how Rachel, does that.

She just described exercise where she gets you to plan out what's your perfect life would like? You know, what are you aiming for and exactly what you said, what would it cost you to live the way you want to live? And you are right? I did it. I wrote all the things like all the travel, all the, all the stuff. And when I worked at what I would meet per month.

It was nowhere near what I thought. And suddenly all these, like, I need a seven figure business. I need this online. No, I didn't need any of that. You know, And I see it for, like you said, I've been part of some big things that they done there where they'd go, oh God, those the word, the, the launch debrief.

We'll give you the launch debrief and you look at how much they spent in ads and yeah, they may have made 10 million. But actually they spent over half of that in Facebook ads, like, oh yeah. Then, then they've got their team. Then they've got calls. Then they've got this and they've got, and it's like, so actually, actually didn't really look like that.

It wasn't, you know, sounds nice on paper, but when you get into it, you like, so basically you made this much money. It's not all that we think is that.

Michelle: I know. And what was shocking to me, it's like, oh, I make almost as much money as someone who has a multi seven figure business. And I'm like, I will keep my micro business because it's way easier to run and I'm happy doing it.

And I'm making the money that I want to make. And really that's. Yeah. I feel like the industry is so caught up with this idea of success of having a multi seven figure business or eight figure business now. It's just ridiculous when it's just like, how much money do you actually want to make for yourself? How much do you want to keep for yourself?

Teresa: And what should your life to look like? Yeah. Do you want to work all the analysts? Do you want to manage a huge team? Do you want. The stress of whatever, whatever. Well, do you want to work like three days a week and earn a reasonable amount of money for three days a week? Like, I think we've been programmed into us that. Like you said, if it's not seven figures. If you haven't done a six-figure launch, which I haven't FYI, far from it. Like it did not have this kind of launch, you are not successful.

And it's like, actually I love what I do. Like I don't resent a single member. I didn't hate like showing up and helping them. I adore it. So actually I think I'm really successful. Like that is a really nice thing to be able to say. So I'm conscious of our time I've taken so much of yours and it's just been brilliant.

Honestly. You're like my new best friend and I'm not going to go and subscribe to everything and follow you on everything. So that like I can, when I, when I get in times of darkness of this world is crazy and I don't want to be like this, and I'm never going to see it in this world. I will come to you and then go, “Oh good there are humans on the internet.”

Michelle: Yes. Yeah. So you can always come to me. I am here.

Teresa: Michelle. Just one final question. Do you see. And I think changing going forward, like, do you think it's going to get better or what's your thoughts?

Michelle: I think it will get better. I, you know, I feel like it's a pendulum, right?

Like we have swung so far into this manipulative marketing and coercion that really a lot of online businesses are no better than timeshare salesman. Is there using the same techniques. And so, you know, part of my mission with duped and the mission with the three word rebellion is to swing the pendulum back.

Because if you think about outside of online business, if you think about how, uh, Oh, my gosh. Yeah. If you think about how Nordstrom's, Nike, Apple, anything that isn't a quote unquote online business, they run, they take so much time and energy. And to creating their message. Like I did a project for Microsoft back in the day where it was a multi-million dollar message testing for a launch of an established product, but they want, they knew like we have to get this message, right.

Otherwise we won't sell as much. And so that's how normal businesses do it. So we just have to like start having these conversations. Start making changes, refuse to buy from people who do this crap. There are so many other experts out there. And just because they're the known person doesn't mean you can't find someone else doing something similar, who's probably way better at it.

Yeah, cause they're there because they don't have the household name. So just keep, like stop buying from these people. And then I think it started, starts forcing the pendulum back to the middle ground.

Teresa: Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right. And I think it has to, I think that can sustain itself surely to goodness.

Like there are lots of stories on the internet of different online marketers who have done really awful tactics and really awful things. And hopefully that's just go and see you get more seen or it's going to prevent other people from trying to do the same I think.

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. And I know like in the United States, the FTC is starting to intervene with like all the income claim marketing.

I don't feel like it will impact micro businesses quite yet, but they see it, they see it happening and they're like, yeah, that's not cool to claim that you can make all this money from business coaching.

Teresa: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's good. So good. Honestly, Michelle, I've had a blast. It's been so good and like I said, Like my new best friend wouldn't have to be in awe.

I felt like there was no one like you in the online world that felt like this is strong. So I am so grateful to find you and so grateful that you come to the podcast and talk to my audience. So obviously I will link up to everything in the show notes, but where do you hang out most? Where would you like people to come and say “Hi”?

Michelle: Yeah. So I am over on Instagram @drmichellemazur. You can always slide into my DMS and tell me what you took away from the show. I am also at And if you're interested in learning more about the three word rebellion, that book is available everywhere, you can buy books, but if you just want to taste and really get a good overview of what, like what messaging is, what it does for your business and why you need to focus on it.

I do have a free chapter of the book over You can just download, read and see if it's right for you.

Teresa: Perfect. Love it. Thank you so much, Michelle. You've been awesome.

Michelle: Thank you for having me.

Teresa: There we go. That was the amazing Michelle. That was so cool. I really enjoyed that conversation. Um, like I said, I'm going to link up to everything in the show notes, please do, and go and share and give her some love. My guest honestly, they really appreciate when you guys reach out and tag us in posts and all that sort of stuff. And I know it's hard actually, because with a podcast you're listening to it, you're doing something else. So when you do, it's like extra, extra amazing. So thank you so, so much. I'll leave it there. Have an amazing week.

And next week on the podcast, I am talking about how to stay in your own lane. Which boy oh we need some times. So I will see you then take care.