In this episode of Your Dream Business Podcast, I dived deep with Vicki Knights, a pro photographer and positive psychology expert, about the challenges business owners face with photography and personal branding. We talk about why so many people feel uncomfortable in front of the camera and how to overcome that to look authentic and confident in photos. Vicki shares some great tips on preparing for a photoshoot, feeling at ease on camera, and using photos to boost your personal brand. We also touch on why investing in professional photography matters, how your appearance impacts how your business is seen, and Vicki’s unique career blending photography with visibility coaching. This one’s perfect for coaches, course creators, and anyone looking to level up their personal brand.
KEY TAKEAWAYS COVERED IN THE PODCAST
- Overcome Camera Shyness: Learn how to feel more confident and authentic in photos, so you can showcase your true self for your brand.
- Invest in Professional Photography: Professional photos are worth the investment because they can significantly impact how your business is perceived and help build a stronger personal brand.
- Leverage Photography for Visibility: Use photos strategically to enhance your personal branding and connect with your audience on a deeper level.
If you enjoyed this episode then please feel free to go and share it on your social media or head over to Apple podcasts or Spotify and give me a review, I would be so very grateful.
LINKS TO RESOURCES MENTIONED IN TODAY’S EPISODE
Connect with Vicki on LinkedIn, Website, Instagram
Connect with Teresa on Website, The Club, Sign up to Teresa’s email list, Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook or Twitter
Transcript
Whether we like it or not, as business owners, we have a personal brand and part of that personal brand is showing up and showing our face. And one of the ways in which we do that is through having our photographs taken and posting images of ourselves, whether it’s on our website, whether it’s on social media.
But why is it that so many of us hate having our photo taken and how can we get over that to make sure that we’re showing up authentically and with the confidence that we have in our business, but in our photos today, we are talking all about that with the amazing photographer and positive psychology practitioner, Vicki Knights.
Welcome to the Your Dream Business Podcast. I’m your host, Teresa Heath Wareing. An international bestselling author, award winning speaker, TEDx speaker, certified coach, and the host of this number one ranked podcast. I am so excited to guide you on the journey of creating a [00:01:00] business and life that you not only love, but one that perfectly aligns with you and the season of life that you’re in.
In each episode, I’ll share with you easy, actionable, and insightful strategies to grow your online business. Plus, we’ll be diving into some mindset tools and strategies that keep you focused, motivated, And are going to stop you from getting in your own way. So if you’re a course creator, membership owner, or coach, you’re in the right place.
Let’s get started. Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Your Dream Business Podcast. I am your host, Teresa Heath Wareing . As always, I hope you are doing well. I have to say I am recording this and the sun is shining and the sky is blue and it just makes me feel, so flippin happy and the sooner I can get out into my garden again, if you don’t follow me on Instagram then and you’re interested in a bit of vegetable growing and baking, you might want to follow me over there because that’s what I do when I’m not helping people with [00:02:00] launches and the fact that the sun is shining and spring is coming, it makes me feel so, so happy.
Today, we are talking about something that I think lots of people might hate, and I have learned to love. Today, we are talking about photography and having our photos taken, and being confident on camera, showing up authentically, and how to Be willing to show our faces because at the end of the day, if you’re listening to this, I am fairly confident that whether you think you are or not, you’re a personal brand, everyone is a personal brand to some degree.
I’ve been watching a lot of Daniel Preece’s content, and he talks about the fact of. how personal brands are way more powerful than companies. If you look at someone like Virgin, he gives this as an example, how Richard Branson has way more followers than any of his Virgin companies. And he gives a ton of different examples.
And it was so prevalent in today’s conversation, the fact of we do need to show our face and we need to understand that we [00:03:00] are a personal brand. And today I’m talking with the very lovely Vicki Knights. Vicki is a visible strategist with a positive psychology practitioner and is one of the UK’s leading branding photographers.
Vicki uses photography and positive psychology to help business owners to be seen and show up with joyful confidence. She has photographed over a thousand female business owners across the globe over the last 15 years, and her work has been featured internationally in publications like Vanity Fair, Forbes, The Sunday Times, and Cosmopolitan.
Vicki’s photography is amazing. Now, I have never had a photo shoot with Vicki. I would like to have a photo shoot with Vicki, and the reason I haven’t is because she lives quite far away from where I am, and I just haven’t found the time to free up a few days in my diary to be able to go somewhere, for a photo shoot.
The photo shoots that I have are either in my house or sometimes when I go to the States and stay with my lovely friend Mary, who has a beautiful house, [00:04:00] I have photos done with her. She doesn’t do them. We have a photographer and someone come in. So I just haven’t got round to having some photos done with Vicki, but I want to because she is excellent.
So that’s your first job today to go and follow Vicki on Instagram if you don’t already, because her photo shoots are just awesome. But we talk about having photo shoots and having photos taken and I say pretty early on that actually, I don’t mind it. I quite like it now. I never used to, that was never something that I loved, but I got used to it.
But one of the things that always worried me was how do we show up authentically? Well, also trying to have a really good photo shoot and I tell a story about how I am with my photographer and how I can turn it on really quickly in terms of getting some good photos and how authentic does that actually feel and how authentic is having your hair done and your makeup done and showing up and being positioned potentially.
So we talk about all of that and how Vicki ensures that her customers and people who work with her are [00:05:00] comfortable and do shop as their authentic selves. She also talks about how to feel confident on camera because it’s not something, and I think as women as well, it’s not something that we’re used to doing.
Like. Other than the business friends that I have, my friends and family who are nothing to do with business, none of them have had a photo shoot. And it feels like a very weird and bizarre thing to do when you think about it, when you’re not in business. And we talk about this as well. And we talk about showing up and feeling confident and all of that good stuff.
So I think if you are a woman in business in particular, you are going to find this conversation really, really helpful. And if you. need a photo shoot, want to photo shoot, and you’re about to have one, then this is definitely going to help you show up with confidence and have your best photos yet. Okay.
Without further ado, here is the very lovely Vicki. Vicki, welcome to the podcast.
Vicki: Thank you. I’m looking forward to an opportunity to talk to you again.
Teresa: Me too. I came on your podcast, didn’t I? This is quite some time [00:06:00] ago.
Vicki: Last year. You were one of my first guests, actually. So it must have been last April or May. So yeah, nearly a year.
Teresa: And it was one of the first and very few episodes that I’ve done where I talked about the journey I’d been through and everything that happened. And not that I don’t intend to talk about that, but just unless someone says, can we talk about it? I don’t intend to bring it up, but it was really, it was a lovely episode.
And I actually re listened to it. Is that sad? Do you ever do that?
Vicki: Yeah. Especially if I’ve been a guest on someone else’s, you want to make sure that you haven’t made a complete idiot of yourself. I always think.
Teresa: Well, yeah. Sometimes I wish I didn’t re listen to some, but no, I did re listen to that one because it got such good feedback and, and your audience said really nice stuff as well.
So it was like, okay, let me, let me have a listen to what I actually said. Cause also I think sometimes during a podcast, you forget. what you’ve actually said and where this conversation went.
Vicki: So, how was it listening back? Okay.
Teresa: It was good. Yeah, it was, yeah, it was good. I’m very, I am very vulnerable, [00:07:00] which is one of the things that we’re going to talk about in terms of like showing up authentic and vulnerable and all that sort of stuff.
And I think that’s okay. I like that. I like that. I am very authentic and vulnerable and happy to share and all that. So yeah, I was happy with how it came out. I thought you were great.
Vicki: You were fantastic. And I had such great feedback about that. It was such a, I knew when I started the podcast, I wanted you to be one of my very first guests. So I’m very pleased you said yes, but I thought you were fantastic.
Teresa: Thank you. I appreciate that. So you, Vicki, are a photographer and a mighty fine one at that. You, On my list of people I would like to go and have a photo shoot with because your stuff is brilliant and very much like how, how I like seeing photos and how I like them styled.
But I suspect that I am probably very different from most people that you will photograph [00:08:00] because I have learned to love. having my photos taken. That’s so good to hear. This is not something that you deal with on the regular, I would imagine.
Vicki: Occasionally it happens. And actually, because I’ve been doing this for so long, I have a lot of clients come back to me.
And so they know that they like it now. It’s always the ones that I am photographing for the first time that just Have this preconceived opinion. They’re going to eat it. And then it doesn’t feel like them. And then afterwards they’re like, Oh, we actually really enjoyed that. It’s quite addictive. I want to book another one in.
So yeah, I do get it from my regular clients, but yes, you’re right. First time round, people are so nervous about it. And I would say well over 90 percent of the people I photograph first time around just say, I hate the camera. Camera hates me. I don’t look like the women on your website. I’m not photogenic. I hear all of that all the time.
Teresa: And how do you deal with that?
Vicki: So how do I deal with it? Well, first of all, it’s quite common that we would feel that way. If you think about all the conditioning we have through our lives, [00:09:00] right. Of like, not showing off and not getting too big for our boots. Suddenly actually booking a professional photo shoot feels a bit like, a lot of people just say, this doesn’t feel like me at all.
Like booking this is, is a really brave thing for me to do. So I think that’s the first thing to just think. Actually, that’s perfectly normal that we would feel like that. And I think also the other thing is, and I don’t know about you, but this has happened to me quite a few times, is we see an unflattering snap of ourselves, probably on a night out that a friend might’ve shot, you know, when you think, Oh, I look really good in that dress.
Suddenly see them and you’re like, Oh my.
Teresa: That’s me on stages. That’s me when I speak on a stage because none of them are flattering. Normally I look like I’m gurning and I talk with my hands. So my hands are doing weird things. And exactly what you said, I’ll see an outfit and go, Oh, that’s not what I thought that looked like.
Vicki: Yeah, exactly. And I can say it’s really difficult to take a great photo of someone on stage because you’re generally shooting from underneath as well. Which is why I don’t, I don’t photograph [00:10:00] events. I did a few and then I don’t do them anymore because I want people to see their photos and feel amazing, rather than me having to shoot in conditions that I don’t wanna be shooting in that I know they’re not gonna love because I’m shooting in bad light from underneath their
like you say, like, yeah, it’s just difficult to get a good shot. So yeah, that’s what, and I know when I look at a photo of me, it happened recently, and I was like, oh no, that is just awful. And I was sh even though I know I can look at that and know why. It’s an unflattering photo because the lighting’s wrong.
I know where they were shooting from and everything else. But I saw it’s like showing my husband and like one of my mates going, does this, is this actually what I look like? And they were like, no, that looks like you with an ugly filter on. So I knew it wasn’t that, but you’d still have a moment of going, Oh no, is this actually how people see me?
So quite often when people come to me and they say, I’m really unphotogenic. It’s because they’ve seen those snaps of them that are really unflattering. So once they actually get in front of my camera and see themselves [00:11:00] through my eyes, through, you know, my years of experience, then they go, Oh my God, I’ve not, I literally had someone last week say to me, I have not had a photo of myself this good since the nineties.
She said, I’m not kidding. I managed to get, you know, a PR shoot one day. I managed to get in front of the photographer’s lens in the nineties. I haven’t liked any photos since then. And that’s just such an amazing feeling. And I think the way around it as well is. Well, one thing is what actually, one thing I did want to talk about is the fact that we, what we see when we see, when someone takes a photograph of us is not what we see in the mirror.
So we are seeing a flipped version of ourself. So often what happens is people are so used to seeing themselves in the mirror. Also selfies, flip it, you’re seeing a mirror version of yourself. So then when you actually see a photo, maybe that your friend’s taken, you’re like. Oh my God, my face looks really weird.
If you’ve ever seen a video of yourself, obviously that’s then flipped. The right way. Even on Zoom, we’re mirrored. We’ve got our mirror image so I can touch my hair and know which way it’s going. So it’s, yeah, when we sit the right [00:12:00] way, which is how people, how the world sees us, we’re like, I don’t look right.
And yet, to everyone else, they’re like, now they’re seeing a flipped version of us. So it’s almost like, I always say to people, try and do a bit of exposure therapy. So take photos of yourself and flip it and then look at it. Take a video of yourself and flip it and look at the flip video of you, which is the correct video of you.
Just so you can get used to it and you can see it because we like what we see the most. It’s that whole mirror exposure effect. So what we see the most, we like more. So just, it’s like listening to your voice. I bet the first time you listen to your voice, same as me, you go, Oh no. And then the more you hear it, like I listen to my podcast all the time. I’m now used to it. You just, I don’t love it, but you get used to it, don’t you?
Teresa: Totally. And I think there is this element of that, like you said, exposure therapy of the more you do it, the more. you have no choice but to just get on with it and like it and, and actually. not hate it and not hate the result either.
I listen to, I don’t actually listen to my own [00:13:00] podcast at all really, but on occasions like this morning when I was recording a solo episode, I kind of edit a little bit as I go, so I might mess up and I’ll swear on it. And to save Phil, my lovely editor’s ears, I will go back, re listen, delete that bit and carry on.
And although he might, it might be very entertaining for him if I left it in, but Therefore, I don’t mind hearing my own voice and I listen, and my stepchildren laugh at me because they’ll be like, just listen to yourself again, T, as if, you know, all they ever see on my screen is me looking at myself, listening to myself, like as if I’ve got this massive ego and it’s like, you kind of just have to get used to it.
Vicki: Well, sometimes it’s exactly the same thing to me, because sometimes, you know, you’re engaging with people on your own reel kind of thing, so I’m on Instagram. comment, you know, replying to comments and stuff. It’s like looking at your own stuff on Instagram again, mama. Yes.
Teresa: Yeah. What of it?
Vicki: I’m a complete narcissist.
Teresa: So let’s just touch on that in the fact of like, [00:14:00] it is a weird concept and You’ve been doing this for, did I read, 15 years you’ve been in photography?
Vicki: Yeah, over 16 years, long time.
Teresa: So when you started, brand photography was probably not a thing.
Vicki: No, it wasn’t at all. So I started as a family photographer and used to do headshot photography, we called it back then, on the side.
Yeah, it’s a couple of years into my business. I start, I was in like a business mum’s networking group. So I used to do headshots for them. And I remember thinking, God, I have to do this all the time, but there just wasn’t a market for it then. So it was probably around 2017, 2018, that branding photography started taking over my family photography and actually.
Personal branding became a term, it was very new at the time, but it did become a term around that sort of time. And now, and back then everyone just needed a headshot for their LinkedIn profile. In fact, not even for LinkedIn so much, but just for their about me page, they just wanted one or two photos and it’s changed so much since then.
It used to all be [00:15:00] like from chest up, that was pretty much it. It was very rare that someone would go, can I get a full length shot? It’s like, oh, get used.
Teresa: Who do you think you are? It’s just hilarious.
Vicki: It’s. So different, you know, people need that putting posts on LinkedIn sometimes every single day. So they need so much more content now.
Teresa: Well, it’s funny because the first proper branding shoot I had done was in the States. And one of the reasons I think I had it in the States is because they knew what it was. It wasn’t a completely odd thing to have it done. I was heading over there for a conference. And in fact, I messaged Jasmine Starr and said, would she do me a brand shoot while I was over there?
But it was social media marketing world. That’s what I was going for in San Diego. And Jasmine was like, I’m speaking. I’m really busy. I just don’t have time. And I didn’t know how much Jasmine was going to cost and it was more of a to get not just the photos, but I knew she got it and it was Jasmine and Jasmine wasn’t as [00:16:00] big as she is now.
And she referred me to this guy called Tim who we flip in love. He was done a photo shoot for me a few times now, but I think about a three with him, but he got it and he knew it, but it felt very like. Not indulgent. That’s not the right word. Like who the hell did I think I was having a brand shoot? Like, what on earth was I doing?
How do we, but now this is something that I would tell people every business owner to do is you need photos of you. And therefore, if possible, and obviously there’s always budget requirements and things, but if possible, having a brand photo shoot is really important. How, okay. I think I’ve just answered my own question there, but like, why is it so important?
I know it’s important, but why would you say it’s so important?
Vicki: So I’ve had quite a few clients before where they’ve, I’ll obviously do the research on them before, and I can see on their website, they’ve got some iPhone photo that their boyfriend or husband’s taken out in the garden in front of their fence.
And the thing is when [00:17:00] you’ve got nothing to compare it to, you think, oh, that’s, that’s fine. That’ll do. Or a selfie or whatever. And then I’ve sometimes done it on the, with their permission, where I’ve taken the photo that they were using and then put it next to the photos that I’ve taken. And the difference is huge.
I can only imagine. And if you think about it, right. If you’re, let’s talk about if you’re a coach, for example, I photograph a lot of coaches because coaches need a lot of photos. We don’t know, you know, you don’t have everything, you know, you don’t, you’re not a photographer, so you haven’t got your own work.
To share as such, you know, if you’re a florist, you’re sharing your, your flowers. And I think a really important point is if someone’s coming to your website and they’re going to invest in you as a coach, for example, and you haven’t even invested in yourself to go and get branding photos, I think it really devalues you and your brand to go, right.
So they’ve just got a photo of them by the fence or a selfie from a wedding or something. You haven’t even invested in those brand photos. So the face. You’re brightened and you’re [00:18:00] yourself so much. Also, the other thing is I know lots of people, you know, I’ve a lot of people come to me and they’re like, I need some photos urgently because actually I’m in this panel event in two weeks.
Now, often a good photographer, unfortunately, will not have availability. I never have space in the next two weeks.
Teresa: Let’s hope not.
Vicki: So make sure you have those photos, you’re going to get more opportunities. Otherwise, the whole time you’re putting it off, the whole time you’re not getting those photos, you can’t do that panel tour.
You can’t go on that podcast. You can’t get that PR because if you’re in a magazine and you haven’t got the photos, you’re just, either you’re going to get something without a photo or they’re just going to make it tiny. So many, so many of my clients have said, I’ve just got this PR and I managed to get like a full page or a full spread because they were like, wow, your photos are amazing.
They’re like. magazine ready. So they’re going to put it over a double page spread. So it just makes such a difference.
Teresa: It does. The other thing I think that lots of people often think they need to do before they have a photo shoot is lose weight.
Vicki: Yes. Oh my God. If I had a pound every time someone, every time someone said that [00:19:00] to me, I would be a very rich woman, Theresa, because the amount of times I’m at networking groups or someone will just message me on LinkedIn or on Instagram and say, I’ve, I’ve got it on my vision board.
I’m gonna have a shoot with you. But probably next year, ’cause I’m just on this weight loss can, or yeah. Or sometimes it’s like I’ve got a brace on at the moment, or I’m growing out my fringe or there’s something happening. Yeah, all the time.
Teresa: But like you said, they’re putting off. And one of the things I talk about and I’ve done episodes on it before is about this visibility piece and about one of the ways in which you can get yourself out there is becoming visible is by basically putting yourself on podcasts, being on stages.
And one of the very first things I tell you that you need. is some kind of photo. Now, okay, it doesn’t need to be a full on shoot. If you have brilliant, but you definitely, definitely need, you need some good photos. And actually in most cases, I, when I asked for photos, I asked for different ones because if you [00:20:00] just have one photo, I remember when I did my summit, there was a couple of people who just sent me one picture.
And when I went and searched around, it was evident they only had one photo, but the problem was the in which I wanted to use the photo. it was terrible for it. So that’s where I always say to people, you need a longer one where I can see your body. You need one where maybe it’s cropped a bit. You need one that maybe has a bit of wide space because in an ideal world, depending on what someone’s going to do with it, you need to give them options.
So if anyone ever asks my headshots, we send like two or three pictures of different outfits, different things, different angles or whatever it is. But I think the whole, the whole thing of. when I lose weight or when I look a certain way, that’s when I’m going to have my photos taken, I think is a big mistake.
And I am talking as someone who lives in a larger body and has done for a long time. And actually I have lost a bit of weight from some of the previous shoots. In fact, I had a shoot done not so long ago. There’s a woman who lives near me and she does the ones in my [00:21:00] head when I have them in my house.
And who knows you, by the way, I said, I talked about you and she’s like, I know she’s excellent because we do white personal branding and And the thing is, when she came, she looked and she was like, Oh, my God, actually, since I last shot you, you have lost weight. But that didn’t mean I wasn’t going to get a photo shoot because I still needed to go for those opportunities, put myself out there, show up, and I had to show up regardless of how I looked.
Because I’m not going to wait for another, well, that was years ago, and you know, I’ve lost a little bit of weight, but not a lot. So it’s not about that. And yes, granted, I look at some photoshoots and think I want to look like that in a photoshoot and I don’t. I look like me, and that’s probably the most important thing.
Vicki: Absolutely, and no client that you want to work with anyway is ever going to look at any of us and think, I’d really want to work with Vicki, but I do wish she was a stonelighter.
Teresa: Yeah, if she had lost a bit of weight, I’d definitely work with her. What?
Vicki: Like, who would think that? And if they did think that then, to be honest, good riddance, because
Teresa: Absolutely. [00:22:00] And as a photographer, sorry, and as a photographer, surely your job is to take a good photo, whatever you’re dealing with. So if someone is super conscious, so I remember going for a photo shoot, I can’t remember who it was with, but they wanted me to do a certain angle and my body just didn’t fit in that thing.
And I’m like, I just can’t. It looks weird. I haven’t got enough space to do what I need you to do. But if you’re a good photographer. I’m assuming that you are going to work with the person that you’re working with and whatever their particular thing is.
Vicki: Exactly. So a good photographer will be able to pose any body shape that is put in front of them.
But also, so I always say in my question, I mean, for my, so when I do headshot sessions, I send them a questionnaire for a full branding shoot. We have a chat beforehand. And I always say, is there anything you’re self conscious about? Because let’s not assume. But people don’t want to show it. So I’ve had people before who are body positive and that’s part of their brand.
So they [00:23:00] really want to show off the fact that they’re plus size and like, you know, hands on hip. Like I own this. So if I didn’t ask that and I’m like putting them into really flattering positions and they might be a bit offended. So I always make that point of saying, is there anything you’re self conscious about?
And then people might say, actually, I’m a bit heavier than I would be usually. So I’d really appreciate more flattering angles. Great. Because I know how to do that and that’s perfect, but finding that out beforehand is really important.
Teresa: Yeah, and I, I have had a ton of photoshoots, literally a ton, with a load of different photographers, and there is nothing more disappointing than, a bit like the whole outfit thing, when you think something looks looks good.
And then you get the photos, which now by this point is so well done that you go, well, I wish you’d just told me to breathe in a bit or pull my jumper down a bit. Or I remember I had one shoot down and my hair was curled, but there was like one bit that was really separate and had a massive gap here on a side photos.
And I, I’m sorry, I’m pointing to my head. People can’t see it. You [00:24:00] know, you can work out, but yeah. And I just thought, I wish you’d said that that was there. Like, We need, as people who are having photos, I think you need that kind of interaction from the photographer. And I think that’s the difference between a good photographer and a great photographer because they will see it before you even, you know, you will go, no, move that, change that, do this. And I would much rather someone do that to me. So I ended up with a really good result.
Vicki: Totally. Yeah. I always, before I even pick up my camera, I always say to her from, I’m just going to look at you and I really want to see what it is. I’m like scanning them up and down, you know, cause normally if you’re just talking to someone, I’m just looking in your eyes.
But I want to know like is, you know, if you’ve got a button falling off or is something, you know, just check everything out. Yeah. Completely. Cause there’s nothing worse than suddenly getting photos or for a photographer when they get them up on screen and be like, Oh, why did I not change that? So just checking everything over first is really important.
Teresa: So let’s talk about. Authenticity, because there’s a couple of things that I want to touch on with [00:25:00] photography, because we’ve all seen the photos of, and I’m laughing because this is me when I do my photos. One of the things that my photographer that I use locally said to me is whenever someone is booking a shoot with her and they’re looking at brand photos, she’ll show them mine or they’ll see mine and they’ll go, how do I get, like, how do I get that right?
Because I’m really good at putting it on, I’m really good at being like, like literally all the laughing, all the smiling, like I am having the best time in the world having a photo shoot, but I will literally, we will, she came and did the last one and I literally was like, okay, you’re ready? She’s like, yeah.
And I’m like, are you done? Yeah, great. Let’s move on. Like literally, it seems ridiculous. Now, how do we. How do we show up authentically looking really good though, because no one wants a photo shoot where you’re [00:26:00] looking authentic as in, like, I always say it’s the best version of me that I like to have photographed.
How do you look at, how do you show up authentically and is the whole me going, I’m having such an amazing time. Is that authentic or how did we get our head around all of that?
Vicki: Oh, I love talking about all of this because, so just talking about authenticity. So I had this real thing that I thought I wasn’t authentic because I can kind of mold myself depending on the situation I’m in.
And I remember when we, yeah, hits really common whenever I say, especially to women, most women go, yeah, I do the same thing. And when we, I did this positive psychology diploma when we came to the authenticity module. They, the first question was how authentic does everyone think they are? And I sort of went, I don’t think I’m very authentic because I just will mold into any situation that I’m in.
So on my headshot days, for example, if someone walks through the door and they’re like buzzing with energy and they’re swearing and then I’ll be the same, [00:27:00] right? I just bring that part of me. If someone walks in, they’re very, very slow, considered, thoughtful, seem really nervous. I’ll slow my energy down too. So I thought, I just thought that was me being inauthentic.
And actually what we then learn, there’s this theory called the self monitoring theory. So you can be a high self monitor or a low self monitor or somewhere in between. And lots of women, especially it’s been shown in research, are high self monitors. So we read the room basically, we know we can read the room and then we take different parts of our personality to match that situation.
But what I learned as well is that’s not being inauthentic because you’re not, unless you are being someone that’s completely not you, but I’m generally only taking, I can be thoughtful and reserved. I can be big, bold and swearing in different situations, right? That’s all different parts of me. So in a branding, well, in personal branding as a whole, what we have to do is work out what parts of us we want to amplify more.
There might be some parts of us that actually, that’s just for family and [00:28:00] friends, probably not something I’m going to show on Instagram, but what parts of me best will resonate best with my clients and work really for my business. And then a personal branding shoot is just amplifying those parts. So, and I, I’ve also thought the same thing.
It’s both me and you, we’ve both done our hair. We’ve both put our makeup on. Does that mean we’re inauthentic? Cause we didn’t roll out of bed to this. I would bet.
Teresa: No one needs to see that with me anyway.
Vicki: I would bet if you were me, if we were meeting for a coffee, right. If I still, do you want to meet for a coffee?
You’d come and you’d do your makeup and probably do your hair and we’d go out and make a coffee. I would too, right? I’m not going to come straight out of bed, you know, in my pajamas, no makeup on. So that’s authentic for us. And I think sometimes what makes people feel a little bit sick in their mouths when they think personal branding shoes.
is they think, Oh my goodness, I’m going to have to put a blazer on and wear heels and you do this fake laughing and be something that I’m not. But actually they’ve just got to be exactly like you just said, the best side of [00:29:00] them. So my advice, for example, whenever I have, whenever clients ask me how much makeup they should wear, I say, I want you to wear the same amount of makeup that you would wear on a night out.
Now, for some people that’s. The whole shebang, right? Yeah. Others, that might be like just a bit of mascara and a bit of lip gloss. Some people say, well, I don’t really wear much on a night out. I’m like, that’s it then. Just do that.
Teresa: Don’t then. Yeah.
Vicki: Just want you to look your best self. So come looking like you would for a night out, but there’s, I’ve heard it before where people have come.
I’ve done it before in a branding shoot as well. I’ve gone to a makeup artist and I’ve looked in the mirror and thought, doesn’t really feel like me at all. Had the shoot and then obviously the photos, I’m like, doesn’t feel like me. It just feels too much.
Teresa: You know what’s funny? I always have to tell the makeup artist to do more.
Vicki: Do you?
Teresa: I am not even kidding you. I wear very dark eye shadow and I always have black liner on the top of my eye and underneath my eye and whenever I go they never do my eyes dark enough and I’m [00:30:00] like, that’s a picture of me and how I wear my makeup. on a regular Tuesday. So could we make it a bit more full on than it is?
Vicki: Imagine like if I said to you, yeah, don’t wear much makeup. I just, you know, then that wouldn’t be you.
Teresa: Not a chance I’d have a shoot like that. No way. And I think it was funny because obviously one of the things that I used to have in all my shoots was drinking because that was very authentically me.
And that was, part of the whole reason why I decided to share about getting sober and then ultimately needed more photos done because every single photo had a glass in my hand. So, it was authentic and me even doing the laughing thing, like, you know, we, I don’t do actually laugh at how ridiculous I am.
And then those probably make even better photos than the one of when I’m doing like, you know, or I’ll be like, God, I feel like an absolute idiot, you know, as I’m holding onto my headphones or whatever. But. Ultimately, the results are good, so I’m all right with doing that and feeling a bit stupid and being a bit daft.
But I [00:31:00] think, I think sometimes people think a photo shoot has to be a particular way or, you know, you’ll look at like the big people and how they have their photos done and you’ve got to. you know, replicate what they do. But I think that’s when it starts to feel inauthentic. And that’s when you’re not going to use those photos.
Because if I had a photos, if I had a photo shoot done of me very natural, I, you would never see that photo ever because that is not me.
Vicki: So one of the pieces of advice I always say to people as well is in the weeks coming up to a shoot, think about how you use your hands because quite, I don’t want to put anyone in a pose, in a pose that they never ever do.
So sometimes I’m like, lean on your hand. And if they’re like, I never, I never lean on a hand. I’m like, I’m not going to get a photo of you leaning on your hand. So it’s quite often I say, well, how would you usually sit with them? And the amount of people that then go, I don’t know, I don’t know how I would normally sit.
And because they’re, you know, they’re under pressure, they just freeze. So I always say, just think about how you use your hands. And I’ll always to say, when I’m doing a headshot day and I’m [00:32:00] photographing six people in a day, I have to work really quick. And I love the challenge of it. As soon as they’ve walked in, I’m already analyzing them and their body language.
How have they greeted me? What are they doing with their hands? How are they naturally standing? Because I’m going to replicate that when I’m posing them. So some people can’t see me on the podcast, but like steeple their hands as they’re talking, or they’ll just play with their hair naturally. They’re sort of, so I’ll get them doing exactly that so that it feels And that’s why a lot of people when they see their photos just go, this is me.
This just feels like me rather than just sitting on a stool smiling nicely.
Teresa: Yeah. And I think that in itself, you know, you should look at it and go, this is me. But a really good version of me.
Vicki: Yeah, exactly.
Teresa: This is how I hope I look every day. Yes. But a really good version. And then obviously you’ve got an amazing setup and the lighting’s beautiful.
And obviously you’re very, very talented. I want to give Okay, I want to give you some practical stuff, though I do want to talk to you about like some [00:33:00] thoughts around someone actually getting in front of the camera in terms of like, how do they get to feel more comfortable in that? And then I also want to talk about your podcast briefly.
So let’s talk about that first and then we’ll finish on the podcast thing.
Vicki: Okay. I think the most important thing, and it’s the same when it comes to visibility as well, is we make it about ourselves. So as soon as we think about a photo shoot, we start thinking, well, I need to lose a bit of weight and, or not too keen on my hair color at the moment.
We’re making it all about us. And I always say, just switch that because it’s not about you. It’s about those people that you’re trying to help. So how do you want them to feel when they’re looking at your photos? What do you want them to, you know, how, you know, how do you want those photos to lead them to work with you?
So they’re like, God, Teresa looks so much fun and she’s just so professional and amazing. So how do you want, so we always say that in my question, I’ll say in my questionnaires, how do you want your clients to feel when they’re looking at your photos? Rather than them thinking, God, my hair’s got to be perfect that day or anything like that.
So I [00:34:00] think just by switching that, just, just that little reframe can make things a lot easier. I always say just practical tips on the day. So I always give a prep guide of stuff to think about because what you do, you know, I’ve had it before where people would turn up and just go, don’t get my nails in.
I haven’t had my nails done. And then it’s like, don’t normally have your nails done. Fine. But what you don’t want is to be like,
Teresa: don’t try to hide. Nails, like, yeah,
Vicki: that’s going to make, you just want to make everything as easy as possible. So do all the things going to make you feel great in the weeks leading up to the shoot.
And then on the day, it’s the same. I always say to people, approach it like you would if you were public speaking, so you try. They’re really good. So that’s different for everyone. So whether it’s blasting like Beyonce in the car or doing some power poses in the toilet or just having a coffee or going for a run that morning, just whatever makes you feel your best self. And that always helps with the nerves as well, going into it.
Teresa: Yeah, no, those are great tips. I need to tell you about, I don’t know if I ever told you this, when I [00:35:00] had my very first shoot with Tim in the States, he sent a kind of thing about, you know, how to prepare for the shoot and how to be ready. And he said, get an early night, don’t drink the night before, get up early, be hydrated.
Me and my husband got absolutely smashed the night before to the point where we were so hanging the next day we had to get super early because we were doing an early shoot. I had this person come to do hair and makeup. I thought I was going to vom like it was bad. I got to bed at like, so we had some friends who lived in LA came to meet us we were in San Diego. I got to bed at like midnight. Cause I’m like, I’ve got a photo shoot. I got to be up at six. He didn’t get into like three in the morning and we were both in such a bad way and we ended up going to a top of like a car park to have like a corner roof shot of something [00:36:00] and as we’re going around this thing my husband and I are in the back of the car like, oh, like it was awful and Tim was so lovely that we couldn’t admit we, I had completely ignored his advice and basically went out and got really drunk.
The next time we went to have a photo shoot with him in Laguna Beach. Oh my God, Tim. I’m so sorry. We were so drunk. And he was like, we did like, I did not tell you were fine. You were great. And I was like, we just, you literally said, go to bed early, drink water, don’t drink the night before, like skin hydration, dah, dah, dah.
And we literally. like crawled into bed hours before I had to be up. It was so bad, so bad.
Vicki: But I do have that on my advice as well. I’m like, sorry, no, no alcohol a couple of days before. Cause it does make a difference. I’ve had exactly that. I have had clients turn up and go, I’m so hung over. Can you sort me out with Photoshop? I’m like, so much Photoshop can do, sweetheart.
Teresa: Yeah, exactly.
Vicki: Really bleary [00:37:00] eyed.
Teresa: Yeah. Yeah. I love it. I love it. So. Talk to me about the podcast. What made you decide to, because as a photographer you could happily stay in your own lane in terms of like, do your photos, you know, as photographers go, they don’t really, this is going to sound, I hope this doesn’t sound rude.
It doesn’t mean sound rude, but like, you don’t have to do a podcast. Like, you know, people don’t, unlike my business where people probably need to hear my voice a lot and go, Oh no, she knows what she’s talking about. Now I’ll pay to work with her or whatever. Like with photographers, we look at pictures and, and your stuff is stunning. What made you go, do you know what, I want to do the podcast.
Vicki: So because I’m not just a photographer, I’m a visibility coach. So it’s for exactly that reason that, so my photography, I’m really lucky. I’m always booked out three or four months ahead. I’ve got lots of return business. I’ve been doing it a long time, so I’m always booked out.
So yeah, for my photography, you’re right. I don’t, wouldn’t need to do a [00:38:00] podcast, but because what I really, so I’ve run my visibility retreat for like five or six years, but because I retrained as well as a coach, so I do sort of 40 percent of my work is coaching as well. So I’ve run a mastermind.
Teresa: Is it really?
Vicki: Yeah.
Teresa: Like I feel an absolute idiot now because I didn’t realize that so much of your business was that like,
Vicki: No, it’s fine.
Teresa: I took it that lots of your business was the photography side.
Vicki: I mean, yeah, at least 60 percent of my, yeah.
Teresa: And, and visibility, stuff like that. But, okay, I’m, I have more questions, but go on, carry on telling me.
Vicki: Yeah, so about 60%, but that then the 40 percent would be my retreats and my mastermind. And I do one to one coaching. I don’t take on many one to one, one to one clients at all. So that’s, and I, I’d run a podcast for photographers for five years. with a friend of mine. So we’ve done that five years and I love podcasting.
So then I was thinking I’d love to have my own podcast, didn’t want to do it just about photography anymore. And so that’s where that, and then I did my positive psychology coach diploma. So I retrained at that and was like, what [00:39:00] could I do to bring in all the positive psychology stuff? And all the coaching staff.
Um, so I don’t, on my podcast, I don’t really talk about photography at all. I mean, I’ve got a few episodes on there about branding photography. It’s mainly about visibility and authenticity and interviewing people like you about your own visibility journey. So yeah, that’s why I did that because exactly that reason as a coach.
There’s only so much short form stuff you can share on Instagram. People have to have that long form content. So pretty like I have a lot of people that come to my retreat, especially pretty much everyone on my mastermind listen to my podcast because they need to hear that long form content. So yes, as a photographer, probably wouldn’t have done it to be honest.
Teresa: So from a business point of view, then Do you find that you get clients through your photography that then move into your mastermind, your retreat and that sort of thing?
Vicki: Yes, without a doubt. I mean, yes, on my, and interestingly, like someone on my retreat last year, I’d photographed her family. 14 years ago, [00:40:00] and then she she’s followed me all that time through, you know, my pivot and everything.
And then she runs her own business. And so she ended up then coming on my visibility retreat. So sometimes people have worked with me through lots of different iterations of our business, but yes, without a doubt. I’ll have people come to just a headshot session, for example, but then they join my mailing list and hear about the other stuff that I’m doing and vice versa.
A lot of people that then might come to me for coaching, then have a shoot. So it does blend really nicely together.
Teresa: So because I’m nosy. What’s the long term plan? Is it whenever I work with people that have two businesses, effectively two different businesses, which is even though there’s a really nice synergy, they are two completely different businesses.
My thought or my kind of conversation with them is how much Well, one of the questions I asked is how they market the two things. And my question back is, well, what do you want to end up doing? Is there one thing that you, like, if I fast forward five years, is there like, okay, I’m going to do 10 percent [00:41:00] really ace photography, handpick it very expensive and 90 percent coaching, or how do you see this panning out going forward?
Vicki: It’s a really good question. And so I’ve always had something more than just photography in my business. I get bored quite easily. And even though I could take on loads more shoes, I never, ever want to lose my enthusiasm for it. And I know when I have, when I’m suddenly looking at my diary that month and I’m like, I’ve booked way too many shoots and I never want to feel like picking up my camera that morning thinking this again, you know, I just don’t want, it’s not fair on my clients.
I don’t take on a huge amount of shoots because I want to feel really excited about it. And there’s a lot of work around the shoots. I’m sure you’re aware. So there’s so much editing around it as well. So I’ve always, when I did family photography, I also used to have online courses to teach parents how to take photographs.
I used to run workshops. So I had another whole training side of my business. So I knew when I wanted branding photography to be my main thing, I needed to have something else. I used to train photographers. I’ve done that for years. So that’s where visibility coaching came first. [00:42:00] Oh, these two work really well together and the whole positive psychology thing.
So what do I see in the future? I never want to give up photography because I just love it. And I love that connection that I have and just the amazing feedback and how much it can boost. Like someone that she said last week, I want your job to make people feel this good about themselves is just amazing.
So I don’t want to lose that. So the balance up until about a year ago was probably more 80 percent photography, 20 percent everything else. Now it’s more like 60, 40 in the future. It might get even more like 60 percent will be like the retreats, the mastermind, stuff like that. When my boys are a little bit older, have more time to run more amazing retreats and then the photography might be a bit less.
So, but the aim is to always be doing the two cause they work really well. And like I say, I get bored easily, so I just like doing lots of different things in my business.
Teresa: I love it. I love it. Vicki, thank you so much for being a guest on the podcast and I really appreciate the conversation. I think lots of people are going [00:43:00] to get a lot from this in terms of if you are an ideal with prominently online businesses, if you’re an online business, your face is your business and therefore you do need to get comfortable or try and get comfortable with having your photo taken and having your face out there and literally is your, your business. You know, my face and me is my business. So hopefully this is going to make people feel a lot better. Also, please go and look at Vicki’s stuff. She is amazing.
Vicki, where can they find you? Where can they find out more about you?
Vicki: So my website is VickiKnightss. co. uk. I’m on Instagram as IamVickinights.
That’s where I hang out mainly. I’m on LinkedIn. I don’t intend to hang out as much there. So Instagram’s my main. platform.
Teresa: Awesome.
Vicki: And my podcast, Showing Up With Vicki Nights, your episode is amazing. So they must come and listen to that.
Teresa: Of course, of course. Vicki, thank you so much. It’s been an absolute pleasure to have you on.
Vicki: Oh, thank you so much. It’s been lovely to chat to you again.
