The benefits of being micro famous with Matt Johnson

In this week’s podcast I have an interview with the very lovely Matt Johnson, who is an agency founder, podcaster and author of the book called “Micro Famous”. We talk all about not needing loads and loads of followers in order to be successful, using a niche and understanding who your customer is.

  • Attention spans are getting shorter – having something in your ear like a podcast whilst you are doing something else works really well.
  • You don’t have to have big numbers on social media to be successful.
  • Micro famous is being famously influential to the right people.
  • You have to decide what you really want – is it about fame?
  • More content does not equal more sales.
  • The algorithms have put a barrier between content creators and customers so we have to focus on engaging content.
  • The three stages of influence – Get Seen, Get Noticed, Get Known.
  • The aim is to get linked to the problem you solve.
  • Become known for something but only to the people you want to serve – this is easier and faster.
  • Ways of finding your niche – Create a new one or speak to an existing one.
  • Find what people are right from you and create content that speaks to them.
  • If you don’t know how you have got somewhere, you won’t be able to go back and fix it.
  • You can’t count on authenticity to grow your business but you can still show up and be authentic.
  • Not all forms of visibility are congruent with your expertise.
  • Podcasts are brilliant if you sell ideas because your audience can listen and engage with you for a long time.
  • Podcasts are also really good if you prefer talking to writing.
  • Podcasting creates demand because you can take your audience on a journey – you are their leader.
  • Appearing on other podcasts helps to reach new people who are looking for solutions.
  • Reach out to other podcasters and pitch yourself.


Find a podcast you can pitch yourself on and just go for it! If you have never done it before, you may be surprised how much you enjoy it and the potential growth to your business.


  • An introduction to Matt Johnson 08:02
  • Why Podcasting 11:35
  • Micro Famous – The Book 16:02
  • The Numbers Game 19:20
  • How to Build Your Influence 26:05
  • Finding Your Niche 29:25
  • Being Authentic 32:18
  • TikTok for Business 35:51
  • The Power of Podcasting 42:50
  • How to Get on Other Podcasts 46:30
Transcript below


Hey there and welcome to this week’s episode of the podcast. How are you doing? I hate starting the podcast, honestly. Like I try and find something different to say every time and I can’t, it’s really irritating and I feel like it must be irritating for you to hear me start the same way.


So, yeah. Sorry about maybe that’s how I should start it every time. I just like saying I hate having to start the podcast. Anyway, let me go back to being professional. But it is tough. And if you do a podcast, let me know. I think it’s hard to try and think of something different to say. Anyway, I am batching episodes today.


I’ve been really bad recently, and I don’t mind admitting to you that my head has not been in like a great space in terms of getting work done, because I think we all go through this at times and there’s been so much going on in the world. And I think you have talked about it in a couple of episodes back that I was struggling a bit. But I’m giving myself a serious kick up the backside. And today I am batching three episodes all in one go because then, one I get into the flow of it. It works quicker. It happens easier and ideas do flow. When you batch contents, if you’ve never done it before, I’m sure I’ve done an episode. So I will find the episode and link to it in the show notes, but do go check it out because batching really is helpful in terms of creating content.


And sometimes we do just need to give ourselves a kick out the backside and say, get on with it enough now. So that’s what I’ve done today. And I’m on episode two of three. I’ve got one more to do after this, but this is an interview. So it doesn’t take me that long because of course I’ve already done the interview.


So today’s interview is with the very lovely Matt Johnson and he is an agency founder, podcast, and author of the book called Micro Famous. And we have a really interesting conversation about not needing loads and loads and loads of followers in order to be successful. We talk about the fact of how you can use a niche and really drill down into who your customer is that you suddenly don’t need 20,000 downloads per podcast episode, or you don’t need, you know, 5,000 people to watch a video. That actually you can make just as much money on a hundred people watching a video rather than 5,000 people watching a video.


And we have this really interesting conversation about kind of checking in with our ego. Cause do you know that sometimes? I really genuinely have to do this. I genuinely have to check in with myself because sometimes I will do things because my ego wants me to do them. So I will be invited to speak on a particular stage or a particular location, and I’ll be like, “Oh yeah, totally want to do that”.


And when I look at the business reason for it, There isn’t one. Like the audience might not be my type of audience. I might be getting to go somewhere amazing that I want to go to. But actually from a business point of view, it’s may not be the best use of my time, but it’s my ego going. “Oh, no, but wouldn’t it be amazing to go there or how amazing that these people have asked or how cool that you get to fly somewhere?


Well, how will it look on your social media?” So. This was really interesting. And I think this is such a great reality check for us all to have. When we do stuff, are we doing it for our ego or are we doing it to grow our business. Because sometimes we don’t need to do that thing to grow a business. We can still grow a really successful business without being the Instagram famous person that we think we’ve got to be, or without getting a hundred thousand downloads on a podcast, we can still be successful.


It’s just where your priorities lies in what you’re doing with it. And how you are using that following. So I had a really, really lovely chat. He’s such a nice guy. It was really, really interesting. And we just talked about, you know, how you can become influential to the right people. And I think this is really going to resonate with lots of you, because one of the things I said on the podcast is people get really hung up on numbers and we do, we all do I do, you know, I check my podcast downloads as often as I can tell you, you know, we’re literally a daily thing often. But it’s because we’re all thinking that success comes with numbers and it doesn’t always. We just need to be really clear that that is going to lead to that success, that we don’t necessarily need to have all these millions of people following us or all these people downloading our stuff or watching our stuff or engaging in our posts in order to be successful.


And actually the truth of it is, do you know what some people are? Now I have someone asked to come on the podcast a little while back. And I looked at their social media and on the surface, it looks super successful. They had all the lovely Instagram where the photos, they had, obviously a few photo shoots.

They seem to have a few good few followers on all different platforms. And then I started to dig a bit further and actually there was no credibility behind them. Literally none. I couldn’t find what that business was. I couldn’t see who they’d helped. I couldn’t see like proper testimonials. They talked about them being a speaker.


But when I looked at their speaker stuff, there was not any pictures of them stood on stage. There was no credibility behind it. And the reason I tell you this is not to be mean about someone, obviously I’ve not told you who, so that’s fine. But the reason I tell you this is because it’s easy to, to inflate all those things.


If you want loads of followers, like you could go and buy it, them tomorrow, you know. But what use would that be to anybody? Absolutely none. On, although I wish my Instagram would grow faster than it grows. Although I know I have to work my bum off to get followers and to get people, to listen to the podcast and to get you, you guys, to recommend my podcast, which, you know, I would love it if you could. If you’ve got a friend or two that you could just say, “Hey, you want to listen to this woman. She’s all right on occasions”. And you know, in between her, uh, terrible intros, but, you know, Although I have to work really hard for that. I know that you listening. I know that when, you know, you pick up your, your earphones to listen to this podcast, that you’re totally invested in it rather than, you know, me buying a hundred thousand followers on Instagram and knowing that basically, 97,000 of them or wherever I am at the moment, might 3,000 followers. You know, a pointless. So what’s the point in that? So, like I said, I think this is a really good episode for one reminding you, you don’t need those numbers, giving you an ego check as to are you doing these things and then giving you some actual practical steps in terms of how you can become that micro famous, how you can make sure that you are famous to the right people. So I think you’re going to love this episode. I really enjoy chatting to Matt. He’s a really, really nice guy and I will obviously link up the whole, his stuff in the show notes. I hope you enjoyed today’s episode. And without further ado here he is. So I am really pleased to welcome Matt Johnson to the podcast.


Teresa: Welcome Matt. How you doing?


Matt: I am so good. Thanks for having me.

Teresa: Good, good. We’ve just been having a lovely chat about mapping in San Diego would be one of my favorite places and, and that’s just reminded me that we met each other last year. In San Diego, and it’s just crazy how time flies.

And who you meet when you go to these things. So it’s awesome that we’ve been able to catch up. But Matt in case my audience don’t know you enough to have done an intro, but in case they don’t know you can you just tell us who you are and how you got to doing what you’re doing now?


Matt: Yeah. So the, uh, the, the back of the nap story is I run a podcast production agency, specifically for coaches, consultants, thought leaders it’s a hundred percent done for you. Uh, and, uh, I, I essentially run it in about four hours a week. So we have an amazing team of specialists that do all the work behind the scenes. I just built the system and then make sure that the trains run on time, so to speak. Uh, but I got here, you know, five years ago.

I was just some dude. Working with somebody else’s marketing agency. I got the opportunity to start working with some influencers that were key relationships in the agency. And I started doing Google Hangouts back when that was the thing. And one of the guys that I was doing Google Hangouts with that was getting into coaching in that space called me up one day and just said, “Dude, like we have so much fun doing these Google Hangouts.


Why don’t we turn this into a podcast?” I’m like, it’s “well funny you should say that. Cause I was going to call you up like next week and pitch you on the same idea”. That was five years ago. So, um, we ended up starting a podcast that got named, like the top five in the residential real estate space. We had a blast, it’s got a million and a half downloads.

I still, I took a step back from being the main cohost on that. And so I let my partner kind of run with that. But I still, uh, I still have fun, you know, dropping in whenever I feel like it parachuting in and co-hosting that show and, you know, giving him a hard time. So yeah, that’s a, that’s kind of how I got started.

And then the more I did podcasts and the more podcast I launched as part of my kind of marketing consulting, I realized that that was actually the most effective thing I could do for business coaches and consultants. And so I just dropped all the other marketing consulting stuff and just went deep on podcasting. So now we just do that one thing for one type of person.

Teresa: And how long have you been doing it for? I’m just interested because podcasting seems to have taken a real rise in profile in the past. I dunno, 12 months here in the UK. So when, when did you start focusing purely on the podcasting better?


Matt: I started the podcast in 2015.

I probably didn’t focus on running it as an agency and told the end of 2016. Um, I was a big fan. I like I got into Adam Carolla’s podcast. Within like six months of him starting, it would have been like 2010. If I hadn’t had that foundation of being like a fan, almost a super consumer of podcasts, I wouldn’t have thought about it either. Because yeah, it wasn’t getting a lot of attention in the agency where I used to work.

Like I said, we did like Google Hangouts and stuff, and webinars were still big, but yeah, podcasts, there was like, I think two or three. Podcasts in our space up until that point now there’s probably there’s somewhere between 50 and a hundred, maybe even more than that. So yeah, it’s, it’s definitely the numbers have exploded and the attention that it gets like on the national stage has exploded. But I haven’t to be a fan way before that.


Teresa: I find that really interesting recently, you know, because here in the UK we have the BBC and the BBC are really pushing podcasts, heavy. Every kind of celebrity comedian, whoever is now starting a podcast as well. And it’s like, I don’t know about you, but it’s like some jumping on our bandwagon. Like you go and stick to your TV, like leave our podcast alone.

It’s competitive enough anyway, where have you lot there we did a big production and all this sort of thing. So it’s just really interesting. I don’t know. Why do you think that is? And I know we’ve, I’ve bullied on here cause you’ve got book and I want to talk about some of the concepts around the book, but why do you think we like podcasting when we have video and live video and Instastories? I just find it fascinating.


Matt: I just, I think there’s something. Special and different about something you can listen in your ear while doing something else. I don’t know about you, but like when I’m, if I’m not hanging out with somebody, if I’m just alone, I can’t even watch a movie anymore. I can, I can do sitcoms to an extent, but, but you find yourself like, even then, like reaching for your phone, scrolling through Instagram, you know, like I can sit for a couple of hours if I’m by myself and I can go from one YouTube video to another if they’re interesting, but I think just the, the short attention spans with video.

Uh, is getting shorter. And so the idea that people are just going to sit there and watch a half hour show, unless it’s something really, really good. Uh, I think our attention spans are just getting shorter, but when we can have something in our ears and we can still be doing something else that occupies a different part of our brain, that combination actually works really well.

So like, if you dig into the numbers behind the scenes and I’m sure you’ve done this on Apple podcast, once they started tracking how much people listen to a podcast episode, You’re shocked, like people are listening to 80, 90% of a podcast episode. Like on average, we’re not talking about the super fans.

We’re just talking about the average. So it’s insane how much people will sit there and listen to 80% of you talk for 45 minutes. There’s literally no other, there’s almost no other content where people would do that. There’s definitely no other marketing medium, like good luck getting somebody’s attention for 45 minutes on a Facebook live.

I do it by the way on my real estate show. And it’s hard. It’s a really, really hard, and we don’t get any favors with Facebook anymore on live video.


Teresa: Yeah. And I think for me, you hit some exactly. It’s the fact I can learn. Do something at the same time. I hate wasting time. It’s a huge frustration to me.

So if I’ve got to drive somewhere, if I even, so every morning, I. Put this ridiculous microphone every day. It takes me a long time, but hours get ready every morning, every morning. That’s what I do. I listen to podcasts. I listen to audible because it’s this inane activity that I have to do that I don’t have to think about.

That is like second nature to me now. And it’s like, the fact that I can, I need to do that because it’s awesome on current time. But the fact that I do that, and then I can learn is just amazing. And for me doing a podcast, I like the fact that, and I’ve talked about for other podcast but someone is listening to this and I am in their ears right now.

You know, it’s so personal, it’s so, and when you do it authentically and when you do it naturally, which took me some time to find my, my space and how I felt about it and to get over the hang-up of it needs to be perfect. And I can’t say hmm and I can’t make a mistake. And whereas now I literally, I was going to say, I just put add the old rubbish, hopefully very authentic because that’s how signed if I was talking to you, if we were on the phone. And you know, whoever’s listening to this now, if, if the three of us were having a conversation, that’s how it signed. So for me, I like the authenticity and I like the personal touch a bit. Whereas like you said, on a video, I tried to watch, uh, cause we’re out of time. My daughter was here. I was doing way too much work.

As I said, we’ll do something. Let’s watch a film. She said she put a vendor’s end game on. I mean, we’re not talking a five-minute film, are we? Geez, man. And I literally find myself every 20 minutes, like, Oh, should I make a drink? Oh, do you want some popcorn. Oh, I’ll just check on someone and say, Oh, I’ll just do this.

I couldn’t do that. I couldn’t sit there. It was insane. But yeah. Anyway, so for me, I love the podcasts. I think podcasts brilliant. And the fact that you’ve been doing for such a long time, kind of crazy, cause it feels like now everyone’s doing.


Matt: I know, I felt like I was late to the game in 2015. And then you get, yeah. Then now I’m somehow magically transformed into an OG podcasting, which is like, especially in my original space and real estate.

Yeah. It’s very weird. Yeah. Cause there’s so many new podcasts that have come out since then that they look up and go, like I’ve had people come on to my podcast and go, Oh man, I started my podcast because of you. I’m like, how long have I been doing this?


Teresa: What episode do you on?


Matt: I don’t track them. I have no idea. 300 and something. Yeah. Like at one point we were doing two and three episodes a week. I’d put out so much content. It’s insane.


Teresa: I love it. I love it. And I do like that when you’re like, what if see Jordan is like a hundred and something it’s like, that is a long time, man.


Matt: I was doing between six and eight hours of live video podcasting a week.


Teresa: That’s crazy. That’s so much. Anyway. It’s all about podcasting. So tell us about your book. What is the book about and why did you write it?


Matt: Okay. So the book is called Micro Famous and actually the reason I wrote it and what led to like led me down the path to eventually writing it was that first podcast.

Right? Cause it got like in, in the space that it’s in, it gets a lot of downloads compared to the other shows. Uh, really great numbers, lots of attention, social media, we get named like the bunch of lists. I just got an email the other day that were named like the top 20 podcasts in the space and stuff like that, which is awesome. Great.

But at the same time, I also started a podcast in the same space with another cohost. And I had an ownership stake in the coaching business behind each of them. So I co-hosted each and I had a business interest on the back end of each. Right? So two different podcasts. One had the mainstream following, got all the attention, got all the downloads, got all the accolades.

The other one hasn’t had a single episode go over like 4,000 downloads and it built a half, a million-dollar coaching consulting business in less than two years, two and a half years. Right. Um, one of the things that I noticed about that podcast so, much, much tighter, smaller focused audience, much deeper content.

Right content that the rest of the mainstream couldn’t handle and actually actively turned them off. Right. Repelled them. We’re talking about stuff that they could not relate to. Because my cohost on that show is built in a million-dollar team. He nets a million dollars a year off his team that he runs in less than one day a week, which by the way, it was a part of the model for how I run my agency.

Um, so like once that idea got out there, like you couldn’t. You couldn’t put the genie back in the bottle, so to speak. So over time, like people would listen to the podcast for three to six months and all of a sudden they would go to the website, put their credit card number in, get on a plane show up in Omaha, Nebraska, and walk into his office for a 12-hour workshop.


And they didn’t talk to anybody. They didn’t talk to him. They didn’t talk to a sales rep. Didn’t talk to anybody. So like stuff like that happening compared to, so my other podcast that was much harder to monetize with a larger audience and smaller products. It just got me thinking like none of that stuff made any sense. Because I feel like just about everything we’ve been told in terms of how to succeed over the last 10 years in online marketing has all been the maximum number of attention and eyeballs on your stuff. Sell them a low-price product. And then some small percentage of that audience will want to buy something more expensive from you.

So create something for them. That would just offer some, some premium version of what you have the low-price product, right? Like, like that’s the path that we’ve been sold. And we just did the exact opposite with that podcast and it worked really well. And so it just sent me down that, that path.


Teresa: So the podcast was the lead in to the bigger product.

How did you sell it off that, was it a case of you talked about it on the podcast? Was it a case of you’ve gotten to opt in and then you promote it through emails? How?


Matt: No, we didn’t have any sophisticated backend, uh, process. Uh, I don’t, I just, I still don’t think they actually have any sophisticated backend process.

They definitely don’t have an autoresponder or an email nurture sequence at this point. Um, they should. Uh, but no, all we did was, uh, we were good at authentically talking about it in the flow of the conversation on the podcast.


Teresa: Great. That is amazing.

But like you said, what I find fascinating about the world.

And at the moment is one, everybody is obsessed with numbers and they only want the big numbers. I was on something literally yesterday and someone said, should I do Instagram stories? And they said, I’ve only got 600 followers on Instagram. And I was like, 600 followers. Imagine those people have your hikes.


Like that is a ton of people, 600 people. That’s a lot of people. And I think this is the, this is the thing where people are coming from neither looking at these big numbers, thinking to be successful, I’ve got to have that many downloads. I’ve got to have that many people on my email list, that many people follow me on Instagram because they’re all people like that who have got these big numbers and are successful.

But. And I want you to tell us the premise behind this, but presumably it’s the case that if you’re finding the right people and you are absolutely like a dart straight into those people, this is going to interest you that you don’t need those big numbers.


Matt: Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. That’s literally the entire thrust of the whole book is to get people to think about this differently.

Because to me, like when I think of what Micro Famous means, it’s, it has always meant, to be famously influential to the right people and there, and I could break down every single part of that, because that, to me, like that’s the formula, right? If you, but it’s a formula for a very specific type of business, it is simple, profitable and rewarding.


And the thing is, is not everybody wants that. Some people want messy, complicated businesses for personal reasons, right. They need to have 15 different projects. I’m not that person like I’m that person that I want to work less than 20 hours a week. Like I am, I’m a natural introvert. So this is my ideal kind of marketing is conversational.

It’s fun. It’s awesome. Like we get to talk about ideas. Um, and so I don’t need a thousand things going on at one time. A lot of people do. Yeah, but if you’re not that kind of person and you look at somebody like a Gary Vee who works 15 hours a day. And I don’t know when he sees his family, but good, good luck to that guy staying married, power to them. But like, when I look at that, I see all kinds of things. I don’t want like that. That’s when I, that’s what I see when I looked at Gary Vee I see a life I don’t want. When other people look at them, they go, Oh man, I want, I want that level of attention and followership. Right.

That’s not what I’m interested in. I’m interested in, like, I want the, well in my world, I want to be famously influential to them and I want to solve like the most valuable problem in their life so that I make a massive impact. And then I, you know, like move on and do other things.


Teresa: Yeah. And I think that’s the thing it’s like, it’s really, and this is a hard conversation to have with yourself because it’s like, let’s just check in your ego a minute.

What do you really want? Do you want the followers and the fame and the, the stuff that comes with that? Or do you want to make money or do you want to build a business? You know, because followers do not necessarily equal money. You know, granted there is this, I don’t know, ruled or whatever. Which obviously is true to a certain extent that people have got to see you in order to start that process of, you know, funnily enough, someone who just joined one of my online programs today.

So me for the first time speak a year ago, literally to this point last year and it took them a year. So, you know, you know, you need those people following you in order to start that process. But is it just about go and check out how many followers I’ve gotten Instagram or is it about turning that money and which is more important to you?


Because I guess we do a lot of stuff for the numbers thinking if we focus on the numbers, the sales will come.


Matt: Yeah. And then that’s exactly what, what I would call like the big lie of the last 10 years of online marketing is that more content equals more sales. Right. Cause more content supposed to get us more attention.

And then after all attention automatically converts into sales, right? Like, Nope. Sorry. That’s never been true. And it’s definitely not true. Now there was, there was a, I think a sliver of time when it looked like it was true, you know? So around the time that, you know, Grant Cardone writes the 10 X book, right.


Amazing book. I love the book. The mentality is awesome, but he talks about how he amped up in the social media to the point where he’s posting, like, you know, I think it was like 50 to a hundred posts on Twitter a day. Like every, every 17 minutes something was going out from Grant Cardone’s Twitter account.


There was a sliver of time where that works. And then the social media networks caught up and went well, this, this is destroying our user experience. We can’t have this. Like, this is not what human beings, this is not how human beings communicate. And they stuck an algorithm between us and our followers that changed the game again.


And it made it more like natural. Human communication. Like you don’t, nobody walks into a cocktail hour. And says something about their business, like delivers a self-promotional message every 17 minutes when they’re at a networking event. Hey, if you’re doing that and get away with them all power to you, but that’s not the real world.


Teresa: That is hilarious because whenever I talk about social media and talk about advertising on social media, I liken it to a network meeting. I said, it’s like you walk in and go, hi, I’m Teresa do you want to buy my stuff? And how weird would that be? That is brilliant. I love that.


Matt: Yeah, it is it’s well, and it just brings it like, it, it drives, it drives it home, right? Because people think that social media is a different thing. It’s not, it’s the same thing. It’s just a little bit more scalable. Yeah, it used to be massively scalable, right? Because you could reach thousands and millions of people and that’s theoretically true. But now there’s an algorithm that says, if you don’t make the most engaging content, the world has ever seen, you’re not reaching a million people.

You’re reaching the same a hundred people and you’re going to have to pay to reach beyond that. So if that’s the case, like the idea that more content equals more sales, like that’s, it’s never really been true. But there was a time when we kind of tricked and fooled ourselves into thinking that was true.

And now it’s back to reality. Okay. Well now what do you do? And I think that’s, that’s where a lot of people get stuck is that they’re still, they’re still following people. That’s the message they take away. And if you follow guys like Gary Vee and Grant Cardone, I don’t think they intend for it to be this way, but people come away with the message.

I’m producing. Like anytime there’s not enough sales in my business, the answer is producing more content. And so then they set out to produce more content. It doesn’t produce more sales and they’re wildly confused, but I’ve literally seen on Instagram the other day. A Gary Vee answering that exact question from one of his followers.

I’m producing more content than ever before, and nothing’s happening in my business. So he’s got to go and he’s got to dive in and diagnose. What is that missing link? I think there is a missing link. Um, and to me it’s influenced and that’s, that’s why the book is all about building influence in today’s world, where it’s not as simple as just posting something every 17 minutes on Twitter.


Teresa: Yeah. So how did we do that then? Yeah, just tell me what to do now.


Matt: So the short story is get featured on podcasts, host your own podcast, social micro content, sales micro content. We go into that in the book. That’s what I would call to get collectively a new media machine that can operate 24/7 online to grab attention, keep you visible, but in a way that’s congruent with your status as a thought leader.


Teresa: Yeah.


Matt: And whether you think you have that status or not yet, you will gain that status by getting featured and by eventually launching your own podcast, that will completely 100% solve any credibility problem you think you have. So if there’s anybody listening that has that concern, but I want to back up, cause I know you want to talk about three stages of it.

I want to share like how this works in the real world today.


Teresa: Okay.


Matt: So the three stages are, get seen, get noticed, get known. Right. So get seen is when you’re out there and you’re just being visible and people start to go, “Oh man, I’ve seen, I’ve seen that guy before”. Um, “I think we’re, you know, I think we’re friends on Facebook.


I think I follow him on Instagram”. Whatever get noticed is when they go, “Oh, Matt the podcast guy”. or “Matt does this”, right? So you start to like, people start to link you a little bit. Like they get an understanding of what you do, or at least who you are. I’m like Matt Johnson, marketing guy, Matt runs an agency, something like that.


Right. But that’s not the highest level. That’s where a lot of people get stuck. The highest level is when you’re known. Right. Matt’s the Micro, Famous guy. Matt helps thought like Matt launches thought leaders. Right. I get, I get linked to the problem that I solved. Peer review is a really good example of this, right?


So if you think of the word hustle, I guarantee you, if you ask most entrepreneurs, you say the word hustle, what’s the first person they think of Gary Vee. I designed by the way, because that he doesn’t shut up about it. John Maxwell is another great example of just Google John, you know, John Maxwell books.

And if you can’t find leader, leadership or leaders in the title, Like I, there’s probably a handful of his books that don’t have that theme either in the title or in the subtitle.


Teresa: Yeah.


Matt: He’s been writing about leadership for however long. So John Maxwell is linked in everyone’s mind to leadership. So if you’re an event organizer and you decide, “Hey, I need a keynote and we want to focus this around leadership.

What’s the very first person you think of. Can I get John Maxwell?” And then if you can’t get John Maxwell, then maybe you go to the other thousand people that talk about leadership. And so the thing is like, we, we think of those examples. Those are examples on a big scale. It’s actually a lot easier to do that.

If you shrink the battlefield, which is what we talk about in the book and become known for something, but only to the very people that you want to serve and lead. And if you focus and you shrink the battlefield to where you’re not competing with the John Maxwell’s and the Gary V’s of the world, you’re competing only over the attention of a smaller group of people is actually a lot easier and faster to become known.

In that space, you just have to decide what you want to become known for. And that’s another conversation, but like, if you, if you can decide who the right people are, it’s a lot easier to take the exact same resources that you have and be everywhere to them and be completely invisible to everybody else.


Teresa: So are we talking specifically niching down into or are we talking, creating content that’s aimed at different people, but ultimately brings about the same thing?


Matt: There there’s. Yeah. There’s multiple ways to go about that. So we talk about that in the book because you can, you can create a new niche.

You can speak to an existing niche, right? You can speak to a type. Right. You can create your own niche by delivering content in a way that only tracks a certain type of person. I think that’s where a lot of people are going these days. It used to be very easy to niche down. Like one of the guys that I interviewed a while back, um, created a niche for himself called government marketing.

It’s a guy named Mark, Mark Amtower, and he was genius. 30 years ago. He’s sitting there. He’s just a marketing guy. And he’s realizing that government budgets are starting to balloon and the whole military industrial companies that want to cater to them, had no idea how to market themselves and get government contracts.


So he dives into that, 30 years later, he’s still the guy he’s still the government marketing guy. So that’s like, to me, that’s a niching down. That’s taking what you do that you could do for just about anyone and saying, Hey, I’m going to serve this slice of the market, but they all agree that that’s a niche.


Now what happens if you’re like all of us and we want to work with more of like a demographic type that’s when it comes down to how you talk and where you’re visible. Right. Because you’re attracting the right people. I just don’t, I don’t want any speaker. I don’t want any coach, I want certain types of coaches and speakers, trainers, authors, you know what I’m saying?

Like, it’s a, it’s a type of person, not necessarily like a niche in that sense. So I think there’s all kinds of ways to slice it. It’s about finding who the right people are for you. And then, and then going after them.


Teresa: So do you think then that the, because one thing I talk about a lot and the I’m a big fan of is authenticity of you and who you are.

And I talk about, you know, when I joke that I prefer ready podcast. You know, that the way I am, the way I teach, the way I put my content out there, the way my brand is, the way I look, talk, whatever. That attracts a certain type of person say, for instance, I look at the people in my Academy, they tend to be mainly women. Now it’s not that I go out for mainly women. You know, I am happy for anybody to come into the Academy, but there’s something about me. And when I look at my brand thing, it’s very feminine. It’s very pink, it’s very girly. And therefore it’s understandable that I’m going to attract that sort of person. So do you think if someone sat there, I don’t know how to do the kind of.

Not even getting a niche, but I don’t know how to attract that person. Do you think it’s just a case of them being completely authentic with themselves about what they’re putting out there and that we’ll do that for them? Or do you think it’s smarter than that?


Matt: Hm, that is an interesting question. And I’m going to give what I think might be a controversial answer, but I, I think there’s a basis for it.

Cause Seth Godin talked about this in his new book. I’m gonna have you read this as marketing. Do you remember what he talked about?


Teresa: Do you know what? I haven’t read it yet. It’s on my order of list.


Matt: And it was on my list for a while too. I didn’t read it when it first came out. I wish I would have. Um, so he has a really interesting perspective on, off on authenticity. He says something to the effect of, if you have a business that allows you to be completely authentic all the time, consider yourself a fortunate amateur. I’m like,


Teresa: okay.


Matt: Wow. That was, that was like a heavy get gavel to the back of the head


Teresa: Fortunate amateur.


Matt: Fortunate Amateur, this, his perspective on it was. And I think he’s right about this, which is professionals show up when they don’t feel like it.

They don’t necessarily let their head or hair down all the time. So I think there’s a balance. Like we, we are in an age of. There was something he called it like we’re in an age of like forced authenticity. I think, I don’t remember if Seth said that or not if it’s somebody else, but I think he’s right about that.


We are in an age where it’s the authentic authenticity is forced because we have to do things like Facebook live. So you give the example of your podcast, like not having it heavily edited and I’m the same way. Right? Cause if you work with me, you better show up. To my age, on the doorsteps of my agency.

Like if you come to me and say, “Hey, I want you to launch and produce a podcast for us”. Great. I’m not going to sign you up right away, just because you say you want to, like, I, I’m hoping that you’ve already listened to my podcast. You’ve already heard me interviewed and you know what you’re getting into and you know what I’m like, and you’re drawn to my personality.

Because I got to work with you and I got to have you in my life for the next 12 to 18 months or longer. You know, like I don’t want people in my life that I don’t, that don’t resonate. So there’s, there’s that element of authenticity of, yes just be yourself, but. I don’t believe that just being yourself on the track, the right people. Because that depends on what you stand for and what your clear and compelling idea is that you’re putting into the world.

And if you haven’t put a lot of thought into that and you just go out there and be yourself, even if it works, I think you fall into that category of fortunate amateur. And the thing about that is that that can work for a while. But what happens when it stops working? If you have no idea how you got there, you don’t know what to do to fix it.


Um, a good example is I’m a musician. And I remember watching instructional videos that were recorded, like back in the eighties and stuff, like when I was first coming up and they’re hilarious because they would sit down with a drummer behind his kid. And they would go.


“So how do you do that? Like that, you know, that, that Blue’s going to do that thing with the snare drum on the top”.

And he’s like, “Well, you know, I just kind of, and the we’ll just let me show you” and then he would just do it. And it’s lightning fast. You can’t tell what is going on like that. Like, you don’t want to be in that position because what happens if it stops working, you have no idea what you did to get there.

You have no idea what to do to fix it. You end up being that guy who can’t, you can’t teach anybody anything. Right. And that’s, that’s not the position that I want to be in. So I don’t, I don’t focus a lot on authenticity and count on it, drawing the right people. Does that make sense?


Teresa: Yeah, it makes perfect sense.

And it’s really interesting because I’ve always liked said often sees a really big one for me. And I think I’m very authentic, but actually I am authentic, but I still show up. I still work hard. I still, I still, um, you know, cause there are days where people don’t want to get up and don’t want to do it.

And quite frankly, having to put a smile on my face and do an instant story does not fill me with joy, but I do it. So. So I, I guess in some ways I’m not that authentic because I’m not showing you the, this is absolutely whatever today, you know, I am still,


Matt: we used to do that story three hours ago and I just now dragged myself to do it.


Teresa: Exactly. And I’m not going to tell you that I’m just going to just go on and do it and be like, Oh, this is what it is. And you know that, but it’s not being, I’m not being an unauthentic, but I’m not showing the kind of dirty laundry with it all. Do you know what I mean? It’s


Matt: Yeah. Well, and that’s, what’s tricky about, you know, TikTok mystifies me.

Right? Like I have I’ve looked at it. I’m yeah. Refuse to jump on it. I’m not going to even account. Somebody will make it work. Like I guarantee you somebody speaking of social media marketing world next year, that I got a hundred thousand followers on ticktack and I made six figures in my business.

Great, fine. Good for you. Yeah, here’s what I, here’s what, I don’t see it working for most people that are kind of in our space because you have to be visible in a way that’s congruent with what, with who you are and what you’re selling. And if you’re selling high dollar high ticket, coaching, consulting, speaking gigs, you know what I’m saying?


Like, there’s a level of like, you’re, you’re delivering expertise. Like there’s just, there’s some forms of visibility that they don’t do you any favors. They make it actually very difficult for you to come across with expertise. And I think TikTok is one of them and there’ll be a bunch more Snapchat was the last example.

Yeah. It’s like, yeah, you can get attention there, but is the attention congruent? With who you are and the expertise that you bring. And most of the time, the answer to that is no, I think Instagram stories is one of those exceptions where people have figured out how to do talking head videos and things like that, or sharing clips from their podcast in such a way that it still is, is the visibility, but it’s congruent with who they are.

And that’s really tough to do it with some of these new apps that are coming out.


Teresa: And I couldn’t agree more. I, one of my team members is on TikTok and she’s like, Oh, you should do it. You should. And I was like, I might take a look at it tonight and just see what it’s all about and that’s it. Now. I said, listen, I don’t want to lose myself hours when you will.

I literally was on it about seven minutes and I was at, this is not for me. And she said to me, you feel hilarious on it. And I was like, yeah, maybe, but it’s not what I do. It’s not my, you know, that’s not my audience. That’s not, I if you know me and you’re in the Academy and you’re getting a coaching call with me, I love a laugh and I drink too much gin, not on the coaching calls. You know, I talk about drinking too much, gin, like with some, some occasions, uh, you know, yeah, just a little bit just to get me through.

You know, and I’ll be honest and I love a laugh and I can be silly and whatever, but that is a, that’s in a closed environment, you know, I don’t know that that is the environment.


I don’t think that’s the, what I want to be out in public to the world. And I, it wouldn’t add anything, me doing a stupid video on TikTok and I do, unfortunately don’t find them some, I find very good, but a lot, I don’t. Is not going to help me or my audience at all. I don’t think at this point, like you said, someone might find a way that suddenly it becomes okay.


But, you know, I can see this working and it was funny because someone was saying, TikTok on Gary, Gary V. And then like, Gary’s on those, like, yeah. But Gary creates. So much content and I can pretty much guarantee he’s not even creating the content that’s going on there. It’s content from other places or it’s, you know, one, what I saw was he was talking to a girl being interviewed and that someone just got that interview and took that interview and put it on TikTok.

And it’s like, that’s, it’s not him doing that bit. So if you’re a small business owner, if you’re trying to make it, don’t divide yourself by trying to do all this stuff. Cause you’re just not gonna be able to do it, especially when it’s not sitting with you or your audience.


Matt: No. And by the way, Gary V has 19 people on his personal brand content team. You know, that,


Teresa: That is crazy. Could you have mastered


Matt: One of my buddies brought him in to speak down in Australia. And so he got a chance to like go hang out with, with Gary and his offices in New York and 19 people. So yeah, like. Again, and I don’t think it’s his fault, so it’s not like an antiquarian, but people do come away with the impression that I have to be everywhere.


And that’s fine if you have 19 people on your content team, but if you don’t and most people don’t, uh, I think everybody should have an assistant. Absolutely. Um, but most of us are not ever going to get to that point where we have 19 people. So the, like, why take the pressure on yourself of being everywhere when the person who does it isn’t, that’s not what they do? Gary V’s not on a 15 hours a day. He’s got a $600 million agency to run. He’s not on a TikTok all day.


Teresa: Of course he’s not. And that’s the thing it’s like, like you said, 19 people, that’s ridiculous, but of course he can be on everywhere, everything all the time. You can. If you sat listening to this thinking, Oh God, Gary V said, I should do all this. That’s cool. If you want to hire 19 people, then crack on. That’s brilliant. But


Matt: You know what’s funny is some, one of my clients sent me a clip. This is, this is like six months ago. It was of Gary V behind the scenes at his office. I think he brought in like a local financial advisor who, who got a chance to like tour the offices. He was part of the group, but they showed a video of him sitting down with Gary V. And he just said, “Look, I’m, I’m a local financial advisor. Like my clients are affluent people. It’s a small slice of the city. Like what should I do?” And Gary V is like LinkedIn and podcasting. I’m like, where is that message from Gary V the right time.


Teresa: I like that’s perfect. Perfect. Perfect, perfect.


Matt: That’s great advice. But I’m like, yeah. Why is that? That’s not what people take away from it. They take away, I gotta be on Snapchat and LinkedIn or Snapchat and TikTok and yeah, he said LinkedIn and podcasting. And by the way, that’s one of the formulas that’s worked really well for me.

I know it works, but not because I followed anybody else. It was because I just, I did it and it, and it worked. And I, I tell my clients to do it. Um, because that’s where like that’s where their audience is. Yeah. You know, so I mean, the easiest thing is like, if you know who the right people are, first of all, start by going where they, where they’re already paying attention. Especially um, cause we talk about it in the book. Like how do you pick that one? Like if you’re going to really limit yourself and make it simple to where you only have one social media place where you actively engage, like it had better be the right one. Right? Well, the best reason to jump on any social media network is that the people are asking you to.


Right. If they’re not asking you to, are they asking the other people in your space, are they looking for content from the other people in your space on that platform? And if they’re not, that might be indication that there’s just no demand, which means when you show up with supply, there’s nobody there to consume it.


And it just goes nowhere. Um, you know I got these kinds of questions all the time from clients like, Hey, how can I, how can I simulcast my podcast at 17 different places? How can I take a chunk from my podcast and put it on every single social media platform and quote unquote, flood the market. My question is always where are you engaged?


Teresa: Yeah.


Matt: Where, where are you actually showing up and having conversations with your audience? Because that’s the one place that actually has a shot at growing everywhere else. You might as well not pay attention to because if you’re not actually going to spend the time there, when you put a piece of content up to actually do what Gary V says and follow up and be engaged with people, when they start commenting on your content, if you post and walk away, forget about it, you guys will not be, not be there at all.


Teresa: And again, you’ve got to measure up the time that it’s going to take to do that. And is that time going to be repaid in money? Because again, you’ll have a lovely audience you think it wonderful because cause you respond to stuff, but you’re literally spending five hours a day, responding to stuff on the internet and not actually getting on a day to day job, which makes you money.

So let’s talk about podcasting. In this, in the book, you talk about podcasting as a, an amazing tool for getting known and being seen by your audience. So what is it? Why would I pick that over something else? Now, obviously you didn’t convince me cause I’ve got a podcast. I love it. And I love lots of different things about it.

Mainly the fact I was always told as a child, I talked too much and who knew it’s paid off. So I find it way easier to talk them. Right. So it was perfect for me. But why do you think it’s more powerful than maybe some of the other routes that you could take in terms of a content?


Matt: Well, if you’re, if you’re a coach, a consultant.

Thought leader, trainer, speaker, author person. So, you know, throw it, throw all that into the blender. And I don’t know, I don’t know what name we call ourselves, but let’s, let’s call it a thought leader. If you’re that person, you sell ideas, intellectual property, right? There’s only one, we talked about it earlier that there’s really only one marketing medium, where you get more than a couple of minutes of people’s attention at a time and that’s podcasting.

So that alone. Should be basically the deciding factor, but there’s a whole bunch of other benefits. One is that it’s easier to talk than, right. And that’s true. Even of an introvert. I write, I like, I write a lot. I enjoy writing that doesn’t mean I want to write all the time. I don’t want to do a weekly blog posts.


I’d rather do a weekly podcast episode, right. Because it’s stream of consciousness. And to me, the way that I think about podcasting, why does podcasting create demand, especially for professional services when it’s done right. Is that podcasting is like, Your version of a church, your audience is the congregation.

Your solo episodes are like your own sermons and your interviews are like a good bringing a guest speaker in. There’s a lot of parallels there. So, so I think of podcasting as a platform for leadership, right? You’re taking your audience on an, on a journey like a, you’re trying to get for the most part, like most of us are trying to sell this transformation, right?

We want to help people get from point A to point B. Right? Why don’t we help them get from the wilderness to the promised land? We’ve like, we’ve been to the promised land and now we’re coming back to lead more people there. That’s kind of the frame that we’re in. Right? So like the podcast is the perfect environment to step up and tell people like, “Hey, here’s the next step”.

Or “here’s some helpful tips along the way, all in service of getting you from point A to point B”. Now, I think the most successful podcast in terms of getting people to then sign up for coaching or events or stuff like that after they hear a podcast episode is that type of content and the easiest way to deliver that is a podcast.

Now you can do other things like YouTube channels that will do the same things, but you have less time. So it takes way more preparation because you might, I’d only have five minutes to hold somebody’s attention. Yeah. Whereas a podcast gives you 40.


Teresa: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

And I saw something I was at for insiders go and they talked about going deep rather than wide.


So you’re much better off having 50 people listen to a 40-minute podcast episode than having a hundred people watch it. Two-minute video, you know, it’s not always about those numbers. Like you said, it’s about the fact that they’re sitting and listening for such a long time. And I don’t know about you, but I often find when you get someone new to them, podcasts, they then go back and listen to all of it.


And it’s like, You know, they start consuming all of the episodes and it’s just like, jeez, their heads at the end of it must be like, Oh my God, because it’s a lot of content. There’s a lot of stuff in there. I mean, I can talk for Britain and I cramming concept when I do set up episodes. So. There’s a huge amount, but it’s just the fact that that’s how kind of, that’s how it works.

And that’s once you get into it, there’s always something else to listen to, especially if you’ve done it quite a few episodes. So purely out of my own sheer nosiness, what am I doing to get on other people’s podcasts? So for me, and I have to say, and this is so weird, I in my Academy, I have four areas. The I focus on, get seen, get emails, get sales, get fans.

So when you started your three strategies, like, Oh, okay. This, this kind of adds up. And when I talk about the get seen section, all I do in my business, which I don’t think people believe, but my only focus is, are my podcast. Are you getting people on mind? Me getting on other people’s and me speaking on stage.


Oh, and social media, obviously. Cause I’m in every social media, but that’s it. I don’t do. I’m not trying to be on YouTube. I’m not trying to blog. I’m not trying to do anything but those things. And to be honest, the speaking from stage is purely my own love of speaking from stage. You know, it’s still obviously a very good, uh, tool, but that’s really just because I love it.


So obviously I get cool people on my podcast and I’m very lucky and I’ve, I’ve had some, you know, brilliant people on, so that’s cool. I’ve got that. That’s nice. What about me getting on others? What am I doing to get on other people’s podcasts?


Matt: Okay. And I recommend this to all my clients who already have podcasts too, because to me, this is the foundation of reaching new people who are super, highly targeted and actually looking for solutions.

Right. Unlike. Content on social media, even paid ads, right? Because people aren’t that there’s no, there’s no search intent. There, there, they’re there on social media for other reasons. But when they’re listening to a business podcast, they’re listening to it because they’re looking for solutions to the problem.


They have pain and they’re trying to make the pain go away. So in terms of like getting on. I’ve heard a couple of different perspectives on this, but I’m, as you can, you know, like I mentioned that I run the agency and just a few hours a week, I’m, I’m huge on not doing things myself that I don’t have to.

So what I do to get on podcasts is I have someone on my team who in addition to producing one of my podcasts, her, her half of her job is to pitch me consistently weekend and week out, small, medium, and large podcasts. Right. And so we’re sending like basically a pitch email that I wrote. So, and then she is looking for opportunities when she tracks down a new podcast to pitch me on, she’s looking for opportunities to leverage my existing relationships, to usually name drop.

So if there’s one thing I would suggest is whether you reach out yourself or whether you have somebody else to do it, start with your existing network and maybe look in LinkedIn and search for podcast hosts and see how many of them are second level connections. Where, you know, you have somebody in common, maybe even if it’s somebody that they’ve interviewed, like you’ve, you’ve interviewed a couple of my friends or, or you, and I probably share multiple podcasts guests.


So if I wanted to get featured on your show, I would reach out either myself or through somebody else. And I would say, Hey. Like you’ve had Dan on Dan as a client, we actually produce her boss, mum podcast. I thought the content she shared was great. I’ve got a little bit different spin on it. If you’d love, if you enjoy having me on the show, here’s a link to my book, you know, just thought I’d reach out.

So even something as simple as that, you can do it yourself. Uh, I, you know, one of my friends is Nate, her she’s been on 300 podcasts and he has a VA do all the research and then he does all the reach out himself. I’m like, that still sounds way too much. So I’ve got a system on the back end that just my team does it.

It’s actually part of our, like we saw that program kind of behind the scenes. If you buy the book to where you can literally just plug somebody in, who’s a 12 to $15 an hour person, send them through this four-week program and they pop out the other side, fully trained and equipped to just pitch it. So that’s what I would recommend because I don’t really think anything.

But showing up to the interview is worth most experts time. If you make a hundred bucks an hour, it’s not worth doing anything else, but just showing up.


Teresa: And it’s funny, you know, being a podcaster when I first started well for the first 20 something episodes, I didn’t interview anybody. I just literally got comfortable with doing my own podcast. Then I very luckily managed it to get Pat Flynn and Amy Porterfield’s my first two interviews, which was awesome. It’s at work, you know, and people say, how did you do it? And I flew five and half thousand miles to take them for coffee, but it works. Um, so, and then from then on, I’ve been able to look at their connections and go, who do they know?


And then I got Rick and then I got Jasmine and then I got James Wedmore. And then, and then you meet someone, you know, at a conference and go, I’d like you on, and you can do that. And then as I’ve grown and as the podcast is going and other people have seen, who’s been online, I’m getting more requests, which is lovely.

Cause now. I get to see people who perhaps wouldn’t have come up in my world, but what I’ve noticed, I’m getting requests of people that I’m like, you’ve obviously not even looked at what my podcast is about and who my audience might be. Cause this is the most awkward fit in the world and it’s absolutely pointless.


So I think having someone who can do that research, I know for sure that it’s a, it’s a good fit or at least it’s your audience or potential audience then. It’s got to, cause you’ve got to add value to the podcaster, haven’t you? Because otherwise what’s the point. They’re not going to have you on just to be kind, which would be lovely if you know, Gary V would have me on something just to be kind, but I don’t think he’s going to, um, but yeah, no, that’s perfect.

Thank you. Thank you for that. And like I said, it’s on my strategy only because. For me in terms of content creation, it’s easy. You tell me what you want to talk about. Ask me questions. I could talk all day long because I know what I’m talking about. And therefore there’s nothing really that I have to do in order to get ready for that podcast episode, other than just sit there and be ready to answer questions, which. It’s great. I could do that all day long.

It’s been so great to talk to you. And I’m obviously going to put a link to the book in the, in the show notes and everything, but is there anything else you want to leave my listeners with in terms of if they could do one thing today, like to get out there and do something? What, what should they be doing today?


Matt: Hmm, that is a great question. If they could do one thing today. I would tell them to, I would tell them to pitch one podcast, none, a big one, the medium size one. Send a message even reach out on these to Instagram. People are having good luck these days reaching out to podcast hosts in their DMS.

But yeah, find a podcast that you can pitch yourself on and just force yourself to send a message and see what happens, because if you’ve never done that before, you might be surprised by jumping on and getting interviewed how much you enjoy it and how much positive feedback you get. And it’s just a way more fun.


Way to build your business, then posting all the time on social media or paying for ads and things like that, which are insanely complex. You know, like there there’s a, there’s a universal stuff we could do. And just getting interviewed on podcasts is a lot more fun.


Teresa: I love that. Cause I love it. Action taking, and I want people to do that.

I want people to actually go and pitch you watch. Now I’m going to get a ton of pitches. Was going to be said to many DMs, I was going to go any podcast Teresa. I’m not saying don’t pitch me, but also just the fact of asking the question. I asked that guidance, come on my podcast. Unfortunately wasn’t promoted a book at the time, which was bad timing on my friend. But I asked him and he really politely came back very swiftly saying, I’m really so sorry I’m too busy, but thank you. And I was like, brilliant, great. You know, I’m sat here, Brene Brown is like, she is burning a hole in my head of like, I really want Brene Brown. I know this woman is massive. The chances of getting this woman are slim to none, but I’m going to ask a soon, cause what’s the worst she can do say no. That’s it, no one dies. And maybe the third time she might say yes. So Matt, that’s wonderful. And I want people to do that. I really do. And let us know that you’ve done it. Thank you so much for coming on. It’s been lovely to chat with you. And like I said, I will link up to everything in the show notes so people can come and find you and check it out.

So thank you so much for coming on today.


Matt: Thank you.


Teresa: I love that interview. I was just re rewatching. So obviously I have a video of it and. Like we did it quite a while ago. Cause as you know, I batched the, the interviews and I’ve forgotten how good it was and I’ve forgotten half the stuff we talked about. So obviously I was, rewatching it?

And then I got quietly rewatching it again and, and I love the conversation about TikTok. And even though I recorded that some while ago, I say somewhat. But, well, one that’s terrible English some while that’s not right. Uh, a while ago, uh, my stance has not changed yet on TikTok, if it does, you’ll be the first to know.

And also I do want to bring someone on to talk about it in the podcast because obviously, for some of you that it isn’t on subjects. And obviously I want to make sure we cover it. I’m just struggling to find who yet and, and getting the right person. But anyway, so yeah, I love that conversation. I love the conversation about creating content and being everywhere in Gary V and, and how important it is that you remember, we’re not Gary V as much as you know, we’d love that content team of 19 people that is not the case. And therefore you really do have to be really strict with your time and use it wisely. And being on every single platform trying to do everything is not going to be the case. It’s not wise time.

Is it? So, so anyway, like I said, I really enjoy that Matt was such a nice guy, really lovely to chat to, so, okay. I will leave it with you for this week. If you want to find out more about Matt than do go check out my show notes, everything will be in there. And also a link to his book, which I’ve read and is excellent.

Do go and check that as well, have a lovely week. And I will see you this time next week. Take care.