The importance of personal branding for business owners

Today’s episode of the podcast is an interview with Claire Bahn, serial entrepreneur and the CEO and Founder of Claire Bahn Group (CBG), a strategic marketing communications and branding agency.

We talked all about personal branding, how important it is and how we can make it authentic to us.

As always, I’d love to know what lightbulb moments you take away with you and what you think, so please feel free to connect with me on my social media!



  • What personal branding is and why it matters
  • Why your personal branding is never one and done
  • How a great personal brand is a foundation for a successful business
  • Why you need to get out of your comfort zone and take action



Personal branding is so much more than a logo! Every tiny little bit that goes into you and
your business is your brand, including how you speak to people and how you show up.



Claire Bahn Website



Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the podcast and I hope you have the most wonderful Christmas cuz at the time of when this episode's released, it's just gone Christmas 2022. So I hope you had a wonderful time and you enjoyed the rest with your family. Are they saying that, Sometimes it's not a rest, is it?

Cuz sometimes she's mad busy doing all the other stuff and the children are hyper and there's like a whole rush. Anyway, that's done now for another year we don't need to worry about it.

So this week is the last episode that I have recorded and then I'm taking my break. I don't know how long for, I don't know what it's all about. I'm just fancier to having a break from recording episodes. So this is the last one I've recorded and it's with the very lovely Claire who is talking all about branding and how important branding is and how we can make it authentic to us, and I really enjoyed this conversation. It was a nice one to finish on. So I don't think there's anything else for me to say. I'll hand over to Claire.

It is my pleasure today to welcome the last guest for a while, actually, which is exciting. The lovely Claire Bahn. How are you doing, Claire?

Claire: I'm doing well. Thank you so much for having me and, and I feel so honored, not, you know, to be your, your last guest. So thank you so much for having me.

Teresa: My pleasure, my pleasure. We had a conversation a little while back when I was on your podcast, so I wanted to make sure we got you on mine cuz it was a great conversation about a lot in common, which is funny. And we ended up talking about all sorts of random stuff.

Hilarious, which will not surprise my lovely listeners because I do digress at  times. And Claire we always start exactly the same way when you explain to my audience who you are and how you got to do the thing that you do today.

Claire: Okay. Well, basically I'm a, a personal brand strategist and I'm the CEO and founder of Claire Bond Group. And we are an omnichannel strategic marketing agency and basically how it happened, I mean, literally it was so organic started out doing marketing and 4- 500 companies in New York. I decided to go into acting cuz it was always a dream of mine, funny enough, and during the last recession and that I basically used all of that marketing knowledge into marketing myself.

Then my acting friends were like, I need you to do that for me. So that's really just how the whole personal branding really started for me. It was like, oh, I need to make sure that you know, agents and casting directors know who I am just by looking at my photo and things like that. So that's really how it started.

And then I founded another business where we basically personally branded people for online dating and LinkedIn. While it was in 2019, while I was pitching my business up in San Francisco, I was actually on a podcast by, with a pretty well-known angel investor up there named Jason Calacanis. His podcast is called This Week in Startups, and basically, he came up with the idea of Clair Bond Group.

He said he was a, one of the original investors in Uber, and he said, you know what, you started at Uber X. You need to start at Uber Black. He's like, I need you to, instead of helping you know the masses, you need to, you know, go up level and he is like, I want you to, you know, he is like, go and find, you know, million Dollar Listing those guys that are on that show on Bravo, if you guys watched it in the UK.

Those are, those are your clients. I want the, that's what I want you to do. My very first client at the end of 2019 was an angel investor. He's still a client today and that is how we started. So it was like literally someone suggested it. I was like, I know how to do this cuz I'm a marketer and yeah, that's just really how it started. So it just kind of, Snowballed and yeah.

Teresa: So there's so many, like you just skimmed over this story that touched on like, this thing and this thing and this thing and this thing and this thing. So I've gotta go back to the acting. So what did you do? Why did you stop doing it? Like, was it always your dream?

Claire: It was always my dream. I was like, that kid that would like talk to myself in the mirror and I would be accepting my Oscar, and that was me. So it was one of the things that it, it kind of was kind of pushed into it. My, I lost my mother in 20 2006, and it was kind of like you, when you lose someone that's very, if you've ever lost anyone, it's like so important to your life, obviously, as your mother would be, as a 20 year old 20 something.

And so I just was like, you know what? I can't like, my can't life can't end with me having these things that I've never tried, these dreams that I never went for. I can't, that's just not how I wanna live my life. So that's what really was the impetus to do it. And then obviously it got laid off , so then it was like, okay, well yeah, no one's hiring me cuz it was 2009.

So that's really just kind of how it started, and I did. That's actually what kind of made me move here. I moved here in 20 2012 cause I was like, more TV and film was being shot here than in New York. I was in New York at the time. That hasn't change yet. The world has just changed. Things started moving to, to Vancouver, moving to Toronto, moving to, you know, Atlanta has a lot of the, what used to be the Los Angeles.

Like workers, like one of our, our friends who was interesting cinematographer, he literally, he like split his time. His family lived here in, in Los Angeles and he was living in Atlanta because his, his kids were in high school. And he is like, I don't wanna uproot, you know, move them to Atlanta. They need to finish high school and then, his wife moved out and yeah, it really, so the, the industry changed.

So that's kind of why I stopped doing it. The industry really changed. But funny enough, I, I do have my team queued up. I found my, I got it it did a target commercial. It was for the like a holiday commercial in like 2003 13 actually.

And so I have, I have them, they're gonna post that I did like a Walmart commercial. Like I just, it, it was fun and I really enjoyed it. But the sad part is, is that, I mean, because everything was turning to be non-union instead of sag, you really didn't get paid what you were worth, what people used to get paid, and you could no longer live on what you made.

So I was like, I was not satisfied. It's really hard to be satisfied if you're doing something and it doesn't pay your bills. It doesn't, you know, and, and you feel kind of..

Teresa: You've gotta love what you do. You've gotta be paint.

Claire: Yeah. And the other thing that kind of bothered me is I felt, I felt used.

They used me. They use my face. They used me. And I, yeah, I just felt used. I was like, here you are, you know, do your thing. I'm gonna pay you nothing. Yeah that's used. So that's how I felt. So I was like, I don't wanna do this anymore. So the very last thing I did was a Nissan commercial. So anyway, I don't wanna do it anymore.

Teresa: Who was the most famous person you met while doing acting?

Claire: The first thing I ever did, I was background for Sex of the City too. I didn't meet them, but I saw, skin in the bathroom, but that's not anything. The thing that I think was most interesting is one of my friends, Adrian Martinez, he has gone on, he was my, like someone in my class and he was gone on to be in a lot of TV shows, been in movies with like Will Smith and her name is escaping me now.

But anyway, but yeah, been in a lot of stuff and so he, that one was, was kind of cool. And like sometimes we still like DM each other on Instagram and things. But yeah, that was actually kind of a fun one that you see the people that you know. Actually do well and you're like, yay.

Teresa: Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. I was saying to you before we came one that my friends live in LA and I made the mistake once of asking him, he's been in LA they've been there like 16 years, and I made the mistake once of saying, have you, have you ever seen really famous?

Now they were my husband's friends and I, this was the first time I met them and he went, no, not really. And then for the rest of the week that we were there, literally, oh yeah, no so this person. Oh yeah. I've been biking with this person. Oh yeah. To the point where I wish I'd never asked. Cause it was like, alright, now you can stop telling me all the people you've seen. But yeah, it's so funny.

Claire: It's, and yeah, you, you do, you just hear them all the time. Even in New York..

Teresa: That, and honestly, it kind of blows my mind. It blows 'em on. So we went from acting and then you started the personal branding and you started personal branding for people, for dating sites. Like how did you get into that? Did you have to like do the DMing for them? Like..

Claire: No, no, no, no.

Teresa: Because that would be very, very interesting.

Claire: So we're still around, we're kind of debating whether we just shutter it cuz Claire Bond Group is really just taking all of our energy. Yeah, it's called Online Profile Pros and basically they would come to us and they would book a photographer, dating coach.

It started out where they would just book a photographer and then we kind of folded it into a whole package where they would get a dating coach, you know, wardrobe stylist, the whole thing. So we kind of upleveled it a little bit from there. But yeah, so it would just be like the photos and your profile and that kind of thing.

So we never got into the whole like, I'm gonna chat for you or things like that. That was not what we did.

Teresa: Imagine could you imagine like, and that's so interesting because actually I think that's, like when it comes to personal branding, that is personal branding like it is. You know, it's not the kind of stuff that people maybe always think about paying for.

But like, so I, I don't know if I've told you this story about but my, I met my husband online and I had been married before and I got divorced and he had been married before and was going through a divorce and my husband evidently did not bring someone in to help him with his profile because his photos were selfies, but they were like looking down.

So he had about five chins as he was doing it. And because I'm a nice person, he didn't look all that right? But he was really nice to talk to when I was like, do you know what, I'll meet him. But went and met him and it was like being catfished, but the other way round.

My husband is hot, right? He's a good looking guy but because he took these dreadful pitches, and like his profile was not all out like I won. Like I seriously won in that case because lucky I am, I am not like the type of person to go, oh, you are horrible. But yeah, cuz he just didn't have to do a dating profile cuz obviously he like I had never had to date.

Because we'd be married and you know, we got divorced, so, but I love that. That's great. That's so interesting. Okay. So, let's talk about personal branding then, because Yes, when people like, so I came from big corporate marketing and like talking about branding and all the conversations around it. It was huge and it's big and it's important and they spend millions and powers and all that sort of stuff.

Claire: The colors and the theory behind the colors. You're like, oh my god.

Teresa: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The detail in it. But what I find is talking to business owners, personal brands, the other side, like it's almost from one end of the spectrum to the other. It's like okay unless I'm this big, massive company with millions to spare and a big team brand isn't important to me.

Like, yeah, I'll just shove a logo up and it's fine. Like how do we, how do you explain to people the importance of having a strong brand.

Claire: I mean, it's actually funny cause I'm kind of getting, I'm putting together like a, uh, an upcoming speech that I'm doing, so I'll give you kind of pieces of that.

Basically, I feel like it's not like a PC thing to be like people are judgmental but we are, we are always you, everything that you do because, you know, I have a, I have a coach that, that said, you know, when you say yes to something, you say no to something else. So when I say yes to doing this, I can't do anything else but this.

So therefore I have to judge whether being on this podcast is a good idea for me. That is your personal brand that, that, you know, that is it cut and dry. It is because you have a strong personal brand that I'm on this show. Do you see what I'm saying? And the reason that I'm on your show is because you made a judgment call that I was worth having on your show.

So when people are like, oh, I, it is not important, it totally is because you have to make a judgment call you whether it's your intuition, your gut instinct, whatever it is, you know, you will make that, that you know judgment, first impression, all that kind of stuff. So do you want to leave a good first impression?

Do you want someone to always say yes to you? Then work on your personal brand. That's just it, it's human nature so we can go, we can say it doesn't exist but we all know it does cuz it's human nature. So we can be like, it doesn't matter, but it does.

Teresa: But it does and it does. When I started my business, I was, I was really fortunate that, obviously I've been in marketing a long time and I knew designers and I knew website builders and I knew, so I did have a pretty good brand from the beginning. Because the designer who did it knew me really well, so therefore it was very easy for him to convert me into a brand. And then I've always used a branding person since like, but because I was helping and teaching and supporting other business owners, I had to look a certain way.

I couldn't be saying to my members or my students or people I'm working with a few people in my 90 day program at the moment, who are just starting. I couldn't say to them. Yeah. You know, just like you've gotta spend time working on a brand if mine looks dreadful or if I didn't show, show up properly.

Claire: Yeah. But I think also part of it is you kind of while the branding is super important, I don't think it has to be perfect. I don't think it has to because sometimes people are so focused on that, that they are like analysis paralysis and all that. They won't actually do anything, they just don't do action and you need to actually do something.

And another thing well, how you kind of look is really good, but how you actually show up and this is actually really, really key. And I actually, we, we have really put this into place in our sales calls when I do our, our, you know, for initial onboarding after sales call, I just reiterated over and over. You have to, your personal brand has to be led with altruism.

If it is not, people will know that you are not authentic and you are faking it and you know, and you cannot fake being on video people. No. They know if something is off and the the crazy thing is we had this, this client that we, we decided to part ways with, because we could not get this person to see our way.

And it was always like, buy my book. Buy my book. I literally did a podcast where it was like, how to get, you know, how to sell your book. Like, I literally was like, buy my book. Buy my book, buy my book. Don't do that. You know? So there's this kind of a you have to, things have to look good, look cohesive.

But truthfully, you can, people will forgive a lot of that if you, you know, if you are actually authentic, if people think that you actually are want to help people and it's not a lie if you are faking it or I, I don't know. There's a lot of people out there they have this kind of, you know, like they, they talk down to you.

Oh, a little person. I am going to help you. You are so dumb.

Teresa: Because you can't do this without me and therefore I'm the savior here. You know, hate that.

Claire: I've been told that I have to give you this information. You dumbass. You know, you're like, what? Then you have the opposite of the person that's like, even better than them, even higher level. That's just like, here's all the information. God speed. Those are the people that will actually excel.

Teresa: I think you're right. I think, like you said it, you know, and again, I'm working with these people who are just starting out and it's like, okay, you do, you know, we need to create a brand for you and I do not sell my brand slashes, you know, I coach people, I help you.

But obviously the first point of these two businesses is they need a something, okay, but I literally gave them time like they're doing it themselves so they don't have the budget to bring someone in. And I said to them, right, I'm gonna give you two hours. You are not allowed to spend more than two hours researching what you like.

And then you're not allowed to spend more than two hours creating something. Because if I give you all the hours in the world, you are gonna spend the next six months making something beautiful. And I said to them, and also it changes like literally today as we are recording this, I am introducing a new Cutler into my palette because it just doesn't quite feel right anymore.

So, so I've been mess and I've been doing it myself, although I do have someone do my branding, but I want to mess around and see what colors I liked and see how it was working and so it tweaks and changes all the time. It isn't one and done is it.

Claire: No, I mean we changed our colors. I think it was this year I used to have like a different purple that I was using and I now I've gone to a much deeper purple that I kind of felt I, purple is my thing and purple is creativity and a lot of those kind of things. But I felt like the darker color was kind of more luxury, more kind of my brand, especially kind of the clients that we have and things like that.

So yes, it evolves and what's actually interesting is I was working with, with another client, again, just really didn't see an eye to eye. They just didn't kind of wanna go with the flow on a lot of stuff. And they were like, who are my avatars? Like after like two months, who is my ideal client? Who are all these things?

And I go, here's the thing I can tell you based on research, this is who they are but it's really just on paper. It doesn't really mean anything because here's the truth, I would've never considered you to be my ideal client two years ago. My brand has evolved and now you are my ideal client but if I had closed it off and I didn't, and I made sure that I wasn't talking to you, and I used words and things like that, that was like, I don't wanna talk to you.

I would've alienated you and you wouldn't have come to me. So, yeah, she would hear it, but wouldn't actually want to understand it and use it. But that's another thing that's really so important is that if you, yeah, things evolve, things change, go with the flow, if that's what your gut, so important, your gut.

If that's what your gut is saying, like you were saying, the colors weren't right, then go with it. Don't be so..

Teresa: Like I change it. I don't like it. I change it again like, and the thing is, because I am so, and this is exactly what you're saying, it, my brand is me. Like my brand is, is me. Yes, I might tweak and change my colors, but I'm still the present, the consistent, the thing.

The other thing I wanted to talk to you about was, one of the problems that one of the people I'm working with at the moment has got, is they have so many amazing elements to them. Okay, so they have like a, a masculine element and a feminine element, and they like, they, they're really kind of like their personality, have all these aspects and they're, it's really interesting and fascinating.

And we, we literally had a conversation the other day where I said to them, you know, you don't have to get all that in a brand, don't you? Because it's going to be virtually impossible and that all those things can come out in so many other ways, can't they? Can you speak to that for a bit?

Claire: I mean, basically you just have to, you have to start somewhere and you know, we have a lot, this is kind of what I think you mean cuz you said maximum fed energy. So I mean, is it that this person has like a lot of like strengths, like things that they do really well? Is that what you're kind of you're talking about?

Teresa: Yeah. So basically they, they have a persona that is a very strong coach from a sports background. So it's a very like imagine like the sports coach really strong. They use a lot of like glow charts and strategies and things. But then they have this very beautiful feminine energy that is, that is kind and loving and caring and everything they do is done with this element of love and it's there are these two kind of real juxtapositions of their, of their personality.

And we were going through like who they were as a person and what they wanna be seen as and, and how they wanna work and this sort of thing and I think what was trying to happen and what we've put a stop to is, is we were trying to call all that into one brand.

Like, and it's like, as in when I say brand as in one logo, it's never gonna happen. Like it, it's really, you know, yay you can create a logo and it'll look a certain way, but actually there's so much more to you and your brand than just that logo. So it's, it was kind of trying to say to them, we need to get something you're happy with, obviously but we also want to, you know, make sure we're not spending too much time on this because there are other ways in which we can demonstrate this stuff. There are other ways we can show these various sides of you.

Claire: So I'm basically kind of what, what all the stuff you've said of kind of like diagnosed one of the things to me that's, that I'm like, ah, that's, I had a client that was similar to that. She was so fixated on that freaking logo. Oh my goodness. And then so many other things. She literally had a gaggle of very mean women in her life that were constantly telling her, you're not good enough. You're not pretty enough. You're, you're fat, you're all these things. Oh, it was horrible. We only got to the, when she finally kind of divulged some of that information but I could tell.

So when you have someone that's very insecure, they get fixated on these teeny things, they have to be so perfect. They don't wanna move forward unless you don't understand them unless it's this way and but they aren't happy with themselves. They are constantly being bombarded by negative energy.

They have negative energy and the in self-talk to themselves. So ultimately it's that person that has a lot of negativity that you have to then work through, and it's extremely difficult. I've had many clients like this and we don't, we work on not getting them anymore because it's not a good fit. I can't, I can't fix you.

And we usually end up kinda like breaking up with them because it's just, it's too hard because you ultimately have to just be able to let go of that. Yeah, go with the logo. We could change it next week. It really doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. When you're talking about somebody that has that type of, you know, I, they can coach somebody, they can get people behind them.

And then they also have empathy and people know that they actually care. That person is primed and ready to be on video because people will know that they're authentic and truthful. They're so focused on the stupid thing that means nothing. Just create a video.

Teresa: Yeah. Like you know, we can create a logo and that's great and she's gonna create a logo. It's gonna be fine, it's gonna be great. But when someone has, and and I said I was the same, you know, I've got a very kind of strong, authoritative background in terms of my knowledge about marketing, in terms of who I've worked with and what I do and I take that really seriously, that I know what I'm talking about.

But then I have this very funny, stupid, hilarious like, and, and I was told in the corporate world people wouldn't take me seriously cause I laughed a lot, which is just ridiculous. Like, but, but I, and I think we all have these varying parts of us. And then I also have this, you know, part of me that cares about the mindset thing and gets to know my audience and genuinely knows them and cares to them.

And I'm a huge impact and it's a real problem cause I have trouble turning them off. But like, But again, one logo, one color, one thing, one strap line is not gonna cover all that off. And like you said, the reason it doesn't guess people's to. No. Because we can use all these other mediums in which to demonstrate those amazing qualities. Yeah. And it can't with anybody, can it?

Claire: I actually, there's, there's someone that I'm doing private coaching with who's very Oh, my, the, the preconceived notions coming into the session and I told this person, I was like, listen, here's the deal. Like I call it my New Yorks, but I'm just blunt.

I am straightforward. I hold this person accountable. I am truthful to just, I'm just like, what are you doing? They, they're like, wow. No one's ever been like, I love this. I love that you are like, no, and you have facts and you know what you're talking about, and you. Anyway, I literally took this person from, from over here, all sorts of like, I'm gonna be sitting here and pontificating about the color theory and the this for, for a year before I decide whether I'm going to do this or whether, what are you doing?

Why just get out there and do something because there are people that actually need your help and they were like, oh, okay. I hadn't thought of that. So I'm literally like, I'm just, I, while I am empathetic and, and those kind of things. I believe in action because inaction, it has no purpose and I just, I truly, I can't deal with it because I am very action oriented.

I'm a very goal oriented person, so I'm the one that's gonna be like the swift kick in your, you know. I'm just be like, let's do it. Come on. I can't, yeah. There's no reason to be sitting on the sidelines where your competition is out there with a horrible logo. They don't care about their ideal audience , like they're giving the wrong information.

Teresa: And that's so interesting cause I think when people think personal brand, where they hear the word brand, they hear logo, and it's like, no, it's so much more than that. And it's funny, like, you know, the conversations I've been having with these few people that are at starting point, it's like, we just need something.

You just need something because going forward you are then gonna have trouble, like only with yourself in terms of putting stuff on social media or what a website might look like or, but it doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to bang on brilliant. Like I have three logos since starting, like I have changed my website three or four times.

Like I'm just about to introduce more colors cause I'm not happy with just the colors I've got. Like it can change and we change, you know, we change as people. But also cuz the other thing that was really interesting is, I was interviewed the other day for a podcast and she said to me, how do you know when you need to charge more or who you need to work with properly?

And how long do you have to be in business for? And I was like you know, it's not as hard and fast as that, but the more you do something, the more you realize what you like, what you don't like, what you are good at, who you like working with. Like you said, you had a client that wouldn't have been a client a few years ago.

That it, it will always evolve just for that very reason because the world evolves and we evolve and everything changes. So it's just a case of, do you know what, if I'm happy enough with how this is now, and like you said, there are some people out there that got awful stuff. Like literally the worst of the worst of the worst. So, But they're out there. So it, it is that action. I'm, I am totally, totally on board with you.

Claire: Yeah. And, and I mean, when to, I don't know. I mean, for, for like, we've, we're constantly in the thing of like, you know, do we raise our prices and, and all this kind of stuff, but. I mean, you know. Yeah. I mean the economy definitely makes you raise your, your prices, right?

So you gotta pay for your staff and things like that. But for us, I mean, once you kind of get to a point and you're like, your business is booming and things like that, you're like, okay, I kind of need to like you know, I kind of need to make this a little bit more upscale a little bit or if you see that the clients you're taking on are not the right ones, you need to change your packages.

So we really went through a major overhaul. I would say probably was it last year, like middle of last year, super overhaul. And that just really evolved a lot of the clients that we took on, we raised prices considerably and all of a sudden everything kind of went, boom because I figured out what people actually wanted and I made sure the packages were what they wanted for the outcome they wanted. So instead of, here's the stuff I'm gonna lump together, it was more like, here's the outcome that this can give you. So what is the outcome worth? That's how we priced.

Teresa: And again, you know, I've just been through an exercise where I've increased all my prices dramatically and I feel so good talking about them now. Like because they now finally align with me and my personal brands are my value and who I am as a person.

Whereas I was presenting this and my brand values were things like luxury and VIP and integrity and all of these kind of good things. So I was presenting that, and I was coming across as that and I was, you know, I put on an event and it was a really beautiful event at a stunning hotel and you know, so everything about me and my brand said that but my pricing said something else.

Claire: And we, we talked about this on my podcast, didn't we? We were talking about how you were very luxury and your prices were like..

Teresa: Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. They were like economy.

Claire: You're like, what are you doing?

Teresa: Yeah yeah yeah seriously. And no one bought, because if that reason, because it just wasn't in the line. So again, it's like, It's everything. It's literally like every tiny little bit that goes into you and your business is your brand, how you speak to people, how you shop on calls, how you like, yes, you know, mix with your team, you know, everything is about that, isn't it? I love it. I love it so, so much. Claire, thank you so much.

I'm so conscious of your time. I really appreciate you being on and being the last podcast guest you time. It's very exciting.

Claire: This has been so much fun, Teresa. I'm so glad that we were able to be on each other's podcasts and such a great conversation.

Teresa: Yeah. And honestly, we have so much that aligns. It's just brilliant.

Claire: But we always link up to everything in the show.

Teresa: But where do you hang out most? Where can people come and say hi?

Claire: I mean, truthfully, the best place to find me is and you'll be able to find, you know, my YouTube channel, Instagram, you know, LinkedIn, everything. So I'm really everywhere cause I believe in that omnichannel approach. But is really my hub where you can find all sorts of stuff from blogs, just anything and everything is there.

Teresa: Awesome. Thank you so very much Claire, it's been fabulous to have you on.

Claire: Thank you so much.

Teresa: There we go that was the lovely Claire. I hope you enjoyed that episode. Like I said, that's the final for a while. We're just doing solo episodes from now on. Also, if you are listening to this in kind of real time and it is between Christmas and New Year, I would like to wish you an absolutely amazing New Year, and here is to a phenomenal 2023.