Turning email subscribers into sales with Rob and Kennedy

Today’s episode of the podcast is an interview with the brilliant Rob and Kennedy who are the creators of Response Suite and complete email marketing gurus! We talk all about email marketing, giving value to your list, training your audience, and how to send DAILY emails to your list.

  • The best way to become good at something is to do it more often!
  • If all we ever do with email is promote to people, there is no good reason for them to open your emails (unless they are in that moment of want to buy).
  • There needs to be value in emails to give people reason to open.
  • You should enjoy and value sending emails, and your list will enjoy and value receiving them.
  • If your emails are sporadic, it feels random.
  • Show up more often and be in as many places as possible.
  • Email marketing doesn’t replace social media but you can repurpose your content via email too.
  • Aim for every email to have at least two pieces of value and one offer in it.
  • Tell a story, give them a lesson/moral from the story then make an offer.
  • Telling your audience about your life will build rapport and engagement.
  • An email subscriber doesn’t know if they are in a campaign or your broadcast emails.
  • People just want you to show up when you say you’re going to.
  • The minute you start to email more regularly, you will have more engagement.
  • When you hit send on your email marketing platform, all the other email systems know what your open rate and engagement rate is. Then they have the ability to move you down in priority.
  • The people who are not opening your emails are critically damaging your ability to deliver emails to those who do want to receive.
  • If people on your list are not engaging, they are not getting the value from your emails and you are not getting any sales from them, so they need to be removed from your list.
  • Click tracking in your emails is very important as this is accurate.
  • We have to train people to interact with our emails.
  • There should be a CTA (call to action) in every email where there is a positive reward for them clicking it – this will in turn make them click more!
  • Ask for some kind of interaction in each email.
  • Getting a reply from one of your email subscribers is a really good way of showing the email providers you are valuable.
  • The problem with open/closed carts is that when it is closed, people don’t have anything to buy so you can’t turn your subscribers to sales.

Tell your subscribers a story, then a lesson, then make an offer.

  • A brand new follow along course coming soon! 01:38
  • An introduction to Rob and Kennedy 16:55
  • Turning a bad situation into a positive 21:30
  • The old fashioned way of email marketing 27:16
  • The new way of email marketing 30:16
  • How to send daily emails to your list 33:49
  • Onboarding emails for your list 44:01
  • Weekly emails to daily emails 46:33
  • Dealing with spam complaints 49:19
  • Cleaning your email list 51:52
  • The phycology behind communicating with your list 56:32
  • Email marketing for open/close carts 1:03:45

My NEW email list building course

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Transcript below


Good morning and welcome to this week's Monday episode of the podcast. How are you doing? I'm good. I just thought then, am I good? Am I okay? Yeah. Now I have all good. I'm a little bit worn out.


I think as I started talking, then I thought, well, my voice sounds a bit tired. Um, I don't know about you guys, but I'm ready for Christmas as in, I'm not sure I'm ready for all the stuff I've got to do for Christmas, but I'm definitely ready for the break. And, and I think because I haven't had any time off this year, really, other than three days, literally a week ago, it I'm, I'm done, I think in the nicest sense of the word.


And I'm really looking forward to taking a bit of time off and chilling out and not doing much, which will be lovely. So before I get started with today's episode, which is amazing, by the way, it's an interview such good stuff. I want to talk about what is happening in January and what I want you to come and join me for. Now a few weeks ago, I've talked about the fact of how would you feel if we did a follow me a long recipe, a recipe I'm not cooking.


Follow me along course. And, and helped you build your email list. And I had lots of you come back and go, “es, I would love that. That would be great.” So I'm doing it. Now I have to say as sad as it says, I am really excited about this because I don't know about you, but I'm tired of joining things, paying for stuff and them not being what I thought or buying a course and then being like inundated with this bonus and that bonus and the other bonus, and actually all amongst nothing, or you don't do the work, you download the free lead magnet.


You watch that free webinar. You may be spend money on that course, but yet for some reason, building your email list is still on your to-do list or you've started it organically, but no, you could do it so much better if you just had the process and did the work. But for lots of reasons, you don't, that might be because you are terrified of the tack.


You are sat there thinking, “Right, I can think of a good lead magnet. I can think of something that I customers would like to opt into my email list with, but actually when it comes to setting up that funnel and the automation and the oh, that just fills me with dread. And don't talk about tags. I don't know what you're talking about.”


You might know what a lead magnet is, but you can't seem to work at one for your business or you get stuck on actually putting the thing together. How'd you make it look good. What should it look like? What should you include in it? And then there might be things like. You don't know what to put in your emails when you onboard them.


This process is not a, a two minute thing. You know, I wrote on the, on the page where you opt in and, and sign up for it that basically, you know, it can feel like a massive task and you know what? I'm not going to sit here and pretend it's not, it is a good amount of work that you have to put in, but it is totally, totally worth the work. This is how I've built my entire list of all the amazing people that are on it, including you. If you're listening to this and you're on my list through lead magnets, through giving you something that is helping you in your business or giving you something that as my ideal customer, you would want, and therefore, because of that, you've opted into my list and your, your now my email list.


So it is work. I'm not going to lie about that. However, it's not rocket science, it's just steps and it is absolutely worth every single penny and minutes you spend on it. Oh, I've done it again. I never silence my computer. They're go just shushed up. And in fact, that was a reminder that there's a podcast episode coming in tomorrow.


My very app. Okay. So let me explain what this course is about, because I really want you to start next year with a real positive way in building your email list. So I have put together the build my list course, I'm really excited about it. I put it together, not realizing how much was going to go into it and how much help I was going to give you in terms of the actual having bits done for you.


But I'm so glad this stuff I have put in. And luckily for you guys, I set a price before I priced it and then thought, Oh my goodness, this is, this is big. You know, this is a lot of value. Um, but I've kept the price low for this first one because I said a lower price. So this is a Build My List is a 10 day live, follow me along course. I can take you from no list or a teeny list to creating your first lead magnet, setting up your email funnel and getting people on your list within 10 days, starting January the 11th. So Monday, January the 11th is the first one to one-to-one. It's not one-to-one. I meant to say live the first live call with me.


So basically, how, this is going to work. Each day we're going to have a zoom call where we are on camera. You don't have to be on camera, but it's great to see your faces. I'm going to teach you that day's lesson. And during that zoom call, we're going to do the work. So when I say teach the lesson, I'm not going to sit there on the zoom call and go, here's an hour's lesson and they go off and spend another hour doing it.


No, we're gonna go through each step as we do. And we're going to do the work on the call. Then that will normally be like 40 minutes to an hour tops. Then I'm going to stay on for another hour to answer your questions. So let's say your first task is to come up with the lead magnet idea. Obviously, I don't just go, “Hey, come up with a lead magnet idea.”


I give you lots more, but let's say that's your first task. And I talked you through how to do it. And then you get stuck. Well, once I've talked to you, how to do it, I'm then sat there waiting for you guys to ask me questions and help you with your, your things. So if you're not quite sure if you've got an idea and don't think it's going to work, then that's your opportunity to basically say, “Teresa, this is what I think I'm going to do. Is this okay?” And I will help you with that. So that's the first thing we get one day off, by the way, in those 10 days. I think it's the Saturday I've, I've said as a catch-up day. So you technically get 9 live calls with me. If you can't make a call no problem. All of these calls are recorded. They're them put into the course, which you then get lifetime access to.


So as much as I want you to follow along and do the work in the 10 days and hold you accountable, I do understand that life gets in the way and therefore, if you do fall behind, if you miss a call, not a problem, you get all of this stuff. All good to go afterwards. So the live workshops, as I've explained, on-camera zoom answer questions.


Tell you what to do. Training materials now oh my goodness. Again, this isn't training materials for the sake of training materials. This is I give you Canva templates. So on one of the sessions where I say right, we now need to create the actual lead magnet. I'll show you here's a template or more than one.


This is how you edit it to make it look like your branding, your coloring, your whatever. Here's the text that you want to put in there, like the intro text and the finish off text. Then I give you swipe files of all the emails you need to send of what he needs to include on a landing page. I'm going to.


Also, this is one of the best bits about this course. Often these courses don't talk tech because there's too many options out there, but I've decided to, I know a lot of these systems, I've used a lot of these systems, so I've picked my best three and I am going to walk you step by step. I'm going to record videos of right.


You log in. Oh, this is how you set up an account. You log in, you go to this, you click this template, you edit here, you do this, and I'm going to do it in the order that you need to do it to make your life easy. So. That's going to be amazing too. I'm really excited by that. And I've picked one of the systems I picked is a completely free one.


So if you are thinking, I don't want to have to sign up something like Kajabi, which I totally get, because it's a big thing, although it's amazing. Absolute fine. There is a free system on there. If you're already using a system, not a problem. If you not to do great, if you don't, the chances are, it might be one of the ones I've picked because I've picked the most popular as well as the best as, and also I use these systems all the time. So if you do get stuck, I'm fairly confident that when you come on a zoom call and you share your screen with me, I'll be able to tell you where to go and what to do. So I am confident that I'm going to be able to help you with that dreaded tech. Then there's going to be a private Facebook group.


So during the calls or in between the calls and during that 10 days and a few extra days, I'm not just going to kick you out the group once we're done. I'm going to be in there as well, answering your questions, supporting each other. You can share your lead magnets and there you can share your ideas.


You can share your landing pages, lots and lots of activity in that. And I've got some amazing people coming in to help me, but I'm going to be in there as well. So on the page where if you go to all one word. You'll also see that I take you through the 10 days. And each of them is like a drop down menu and it'll say, what do we cover?


So, yeah. Day one who would I want on my list, day two coming up the perfect lead magnet. And then also on each of these days, it says what it includes. So on day two, you get lead magnet template guide. You get a swipe copy for your lead magnet, day three, you create a lead magnet, which means you get Canva lead magnet templates.


You get an instructional video on how to edit your Canva templates. You get a lead magnet title formula, which is really good by the way, day four, you create your social assets. I give you yet more templates that you just drag and drop your pictures into, you know, day five is the funnel and the copy creation.


I give you the swipe files of the onboarding emails. Day six is your catch-up. Day seven is your tech. Day eight is your tech again and testing. Day nine how to get people to sign up. Day 10 launch. And then we drink champagne and we celebrate. But you within the first month of the year have already achieved something massive.


And obviously it wouldn't be a online course if there wasn't bonuses. So bonus one is a lesson. What now or now what actually. So on day 12, I'm going to go live again on a zoom call, and I'm going to tell you how to start emailing that list that you're now building. Your other bonus is 20 email ideas and subject lines to help you get going.


And your third bonus is 10 lead magnet ideas that convert. So now, you know the process and of course, you've got all those videos of how to do the process. You've got all this stuff you need, then you can just duplicate it and do another one. Okay. So the best bit about this is this 10 day follow me along.


I am live in there for the entire 10 days. We're going to do this. You're going to achieve this is it's only $290. I can't even tell you how much of a steal this is. I have put so much into this because I, I decided I've realized that my value or my, my values for my business is that I get you to do stuff that I get you to achieve things.


And I'm tired of people, amazing business owners, buying courses, and then not doing the work or buying a course and hoping that it'll just fix and it doesn't. And also not getting the support they need. So buying into something, thinking they've got that support and they don't get it. So I'm not, I'm going to be there to support you.


And I am crazy excited. This stuff is as easy as breathing to me. I love it. I love doing that. The list building stuff, the lead magnet stuff. So this is not difficult to me. And I have been told lots and lots of times that I'm great fun to work with. I'm very motivating. So I know we're going to achieve this.


It's going to be amazing. So $290 is an absolute steal. Get in there. Go secure your place. If you're an Academy member, please do check out the Facebook page. Our Academy group, because you get a discount. So you've got about a month at the time of recording this to, uh, to come and join me and make sure you secure your place, but do it now, do it before Christmas.


And then, you know, you've got your first thing. It's a kickoff your year with it's going to be immense. I'm not even kidding you. So there's my sales pitch. Honestly, it's not really a sales pitch because it's such good value. And if you want an email list, then, then I swear, this is going to absolutely do what you need it to do.


So I'm really excited and very confident about this. I've put a lot of work into it and it's going to be brilliant. So what's so perfect about me telling you about this that's happening in January is today. I have got an interview with the amazing Rob and Kennedy. Now, if you are in the social media space or you follow other people similar to me, you might know Rob and Kennedy.


If you are an avid listener to the podcast, you might remember that they have been on the podcast before. Actually, as I mentioned at the beginning of the interview, they are technically only the third people to come on to the podcast twice. So I had the amazing Mary Hyatt. She's been on twice. BizPaul has technically been on twice because once I interviewed him and then he interviewed Paul and I for the hundredth episode, if you've not listened to that, by the way, on my hundredth episode, I bought my husband on and we had a lovely conversation with my friend BizPaul who interviewed us.


That was good fun. And then, uh, and then there's Rob and Kennedy. So, the reason I brought them back on is because when I first bought them on that, they talked about surveys and their, their platform response suite, but actually what they've done and you'll hear their stories. It's really, it's great. And I didn't realize actually, half the details until they said, is they've really niche down into email marketing.


And I very honestly say on the interview that actually I thought maybe that was too niche, but they've, they've really done well and they give some great advice, some stuff that you're going to go “Hang on a minute Teresa, I've only just got together with the idea that I'm going to join you for 10 days to build my list and then suddenly Rob and Kennedy are gonna tell me I've got to email them every day?” Like it's going to make you feel a little bit out of your comfort zone. But I just want you to listen with interest that's all. I have, I did, obviously when I interviewed them and I'm trying out some new things. If you're on my email list, you might see that you might see me drop into your inbox.


More often, but yeah. So I think you're gonna love it. There's so much good stuff that I'm not going to go on anymore. I've talked a lot. Do go check out the course to build your list, because obviously this episode's great. If you've got a list, if you haven't then come and join me for that course. And if then you join me or when you join me, you're going to then know what to do when you listen to this episode.


Okay. I'm going to leave you to it. I'm going to stop rambling. Enjoy this episode. It's a good one. So I am very excited today to welcome back, which is only like one of I worked out. It's one of three people. So Mary's been on twice. BizPaul been on twice because he was interviewed and then he interviewed Paul and I said, technically not the same.


So, uh, the third set of people who have been on the podcast twice. Welcome Rob and Kennedy.


Rob and Kennedy: Hello…


Teresa: Hello guys. How are you doing?


Rob and Kennedy: Great. Great.


Teresa: Good. Now, you came on a very long time ago, didn't you?


Rob and Kennedy: Mm mm. Yeah, it was a few years ago. I think it was when we were first thought of Trump, not long after we first met.


Teresa: Yeah. And I think like, I remember you being some of the really early episodes and, and it was good fun.


I remember laughing lots, uh, which doesn't surprise us. Cause we do laugh lots when we speak, which is lovely. Um, but also, you have slightly changed and, and the direction you've gone in is niche down, which now actually there's so much want to talk about. So before I go into all that, just in case, which obviously there's no way someone's listening to this, that hasn't listened to every single episode of the podcast, come on now and made notes.


Um, just in case they don't know who you are. Uh, would you like to introduce yourself?


Rob: Yeah, absolutely. So I'm Rob. Hello. I'll be using this voice for the rest of the episode. Uh, Kennedy is the other one. So we were on last time talking about our software platform response suite, which is for doing surveys that do all sorts of clever marketing stuff with your email marketing and whatnot.


Uh, I'm a hypnotist I've spent the last, nearly 18 years traveling almost all over the world, performing my hypnosis show, hypnotizing people and making them do crazy things. Kennedy is a mind reader. Anyone listening in the States, it would know that as a mentalist uses psychology and body language and reading people and influence to make it look a lot, like he can read people's minds because let's face it.


When you can do all of that, you basically can read people's minds. And so we've been making a career out of that for, like I said, like the last 18 years we met at a magic convention for magicians of all things. It's literally the second coolest place on earth. And, uh, I'll let you figure out what the first one is.


And then yeah, we just hit it off. And, uh, and discovered that we like taking the psychology that we apply on stage as a hypnotist and a mentalist and applying that stuff to marketing online.


Teresa: Amazing. And how very succinct. Kennedy is there anything you'd like to add to that very succinct introduction done by Rob?


Kennedy: No, no. He was doing all the serious bits. I'm going to do all the humor.


Teresa: Okay. And that is nothing to do with who was more funny than the other one?


Rob: No Kennedy's opinion.


Teresa: So first off, if anybody hasn't heard from you or I didn't catch that first episode that we did, like, it seems like an unlikely leap to go from a hypnotist, a mentalist to marketing people, getting on and talking about email marketing, which you're going to, but you two had both done stuff in your businesses in terms of memberships and marketing around that as well.


Hadn't you? So right. It was less of a leap really.


Kennedy: Totally, I mean, what basically happened is I think people think when you're, they think you're an entertainer, so you've got this show. And so people must just knock on your door and say, “Hey, will you come and do this gig for me? When you come to this event, when you come and fly to Bali and perform at this wonderful hotel or theater or whatever.”


And that's not how it works, literally. You have to run a business, you have to market yourself. You have to figure out pricing and positioning and marketing and sales. You have to do. It's actually a business. Listen, mom, if you're listening, it's actually a job. Be proud of me please. So what happened then after you do that for a bit, and we both realized that the only way to become any good at anything to become good at social media to become good as a hypnotist or a mentalist. To become good at email marketing, anything is to do it more often. And the only way to do it more often, if you're a performer is to get more gigs. So it was like a self fulfilling prophecy of, I need to market myself in order to get on stage more often. So I can become a less terrible performer basically is how it was for me.


And then what happened was people kept other entertainers kept contacting Rob and I obviously separately, we didn't, we weren't aware of this at the time saying, “Hang on, I put a fake inquiry in for your website the other day to find out how much you're charging. And it turns out. You're very expensive. And also you're very busy. I can see from all these gigs you're doing like, you're obviously, so you're expensive and busy. How the hell are you doing that?” And we've both just like, wow, just, just marketing, really? Just like doing the thing, you know, and it, and it turns out we both individually, because we don't like selling.


We hate like getting on the phone and try to sell people on stuff. I hate that. And we both relied on email marketing in order to actually get ourselves booked as entertainers. And then we started teaching other entertainers how to do exactly that. So we both found a memberships and courses online and stuff, and ended up teaching other tenants how to build their businesses, how to do marketing, how to sell themselves, all that sort of stuff.


And that ended us up in a place where we obsess over email marketing now, and that's what we help other businesses do now we help them become the marketing heroes of your business. So we can scrub up all this nasty grubby email marketing that everybody hates.


Teresa: And that is cool, but also feels a little crazy. And I remember seeing it right.


So you guys obviously had response suite. You came on, we talked about response suite. We talked about, uh, doing surveys and how good they were and dah, dah, dah, and that's cool. And then you started to niche down and just talk about emails. And then you create a membership just about emails. And I remember looking in thinking, “Ooh, that's a really, that's a, that's a niche that is now.


I'm not sat here as an expert. I don't need it. And I should, whether I'll work that out one day, I have no idea.” but I do remember thinking I'm really interested to see how that works and actually it's done nothing but good stuff for you.


Rob: It's insane. It's insane. And it came about, well, very briefly talk about it.


It came about by accident, um, sort of it came about because, uh, we started response rate as this idea, cause we wanted to help people use surveys and stuff in their marketing and it's great and people love it and the results are amazing. But actually we found out that we were arrogant enough to think that well, we've sold loads of stuff on the internet.


If we put a software thing and sell it on the internet, that'd be great. And it actually turned out that we weren't very good at selling software. And that's a lesson we hadn't learned selling courses and information and coaching was very, very different. And so we got a couple of years in and response rate was going okay.


It was growing, but the cost of that business, a very, very high. Uh, and we had like this ridiculously big office and we had staff, we have staff and all of that. And, uh, we invested basically loads of money ourselves into starting that company. And there was a moment just over a year ago where we had about a year and a couple of months ago we had to sit down and we went into an office.


We'd racked up an enormous bill from, with, um, with the tax office on, with something that we just literally didn't understand. We'd done wrong. And we sat went down and we sat down in the office one day Kennedy and I talked about it over the weekend. And we went in on a Monday morning at the start of a month and for the September or something.


And we went in, sat down with our staff and said, um, we might not be able to pay you at the end of the month.


Teresa: Oh my stomach just went numb.


Rob: And, uh, we, uh, Kennedy's, you know, often told the story about, you know, what it's like growing up and being told that, you know, people in his life would just accept the fact or, you know, I'm just not being, you know, I've not been paid on time this month because they haven't got any, you know, the company doesn't have any money and how, what a knock on effect that has, we've never experienced that.


Cause we've never had a job. We've always had a business or businesses. And so we just, yeah, we just said, look, we've we're at the end of the thing, we've got to pay this tax bill off and we have to prioritize that and we just might not be able to pay you. And the business was ready to close down. Like we were ready to, we were ready to shut down and lose everything.


Teresa: I've not know this, that is, that is…


Rob: and so we said, we just talked about it over the weekend. And we said, we've got two options. We can either. We can either continue to blindly hope that suddenly we get a whole bunch more software customers signing up or we can close down or we can solve it. And so we said, what's the only thing we've ever done.


And that we said, well, we've created and sold courses. Okay, great. So in this business we can create and sell courses and then we, and so what can we do? And we looked at loads of different options. We were like, wow. I mean, we can. You know, we can create content about anything so we can create content about whatever we want and sell that.


But we came, we set the rule that whatever it was, we created a course about how to directly create customers for response rate. In other words, we want to sell courses that take all of the billions of people on earth and strip them down to the handful of people. Who'll be ideal customers for response rate or some of them.


And we said, so who do we want to use response rate? Who's our ideal customer. And he said, well, he's got to be somebody doing email marketing because that's the place where it fits the best. You can use it for offline direct response, marketing and stuff, but it's definitely best for email. So we said, great.


We both love email marketing. We hadn't talked about it that much before as a thing we could teach, but we said, well, we can teach email marketing. And about four days later, we launched an email marketing funnel. And the end of that month, we paid the staff on time. We paid the tax benefit, 12 months down the line.


We've accidentally created a new business.


Teresa: I love that.


Rob: All the same business, a new set of products.


Teresa: Yeah, that's amazing. And I didn't realize because when you came on, we talked about the worry, I guess not the worry, that's the wrong word. We talked about the implications of having a software product and a software business and how different that is to others.


But to know that you were that close to going, that's it see you later and knowing, cause you talked about how much you invested in the team you'd gotten. And I guess when, when you have that responsibility of I don't know that I can pay you at the end of the month. That is just, Oh God, I can't even think that that kind of decision you'd have had to make and how you must've felt.


And, but then, and I, you know, I've had this conversation a couple times a day, cause I've, I've done lots of different interviews and calls and, and it's that whole thing of, uh, in the time of a horrible situation it feels like that's the worst thing in the world, but it was the best thing, like, because it made you do something and, and you didn't know it at the time.


You didn't know that was coming. But because of that outcame this new side of the business that actually now you two guys are the email guys. You're like, anybody wants to know about email and what to do. You are the people to come to which, which is amazing. That's just phenomenal. Isn't it?


Kennedy: When you start looking at that stuff, you realize that the impact you can make as well.


So yeah, we had to save the business and we, we took the responsibility of these members of staff who put their entire trust in choosing to work for us and not going to work for some big corporation at the choice in the marketplace at the time for the job market. Different now, of course, but, um, the choice and the job market for marketing people was immense.


They who they held all the cards, software developers, the sames that you were Asian, and they chose us. They, they took a leap of faith and chose us. And then we were not going to fulfill our part of that promise of paying their mortgage, paying for their TA paying for their ramp, their cars and their lives. And what was incredible is we sat down and we said, we're not going to just go. And like, hope that we, we showed them our plan on pieces of paper. We said, these are the numbers. This is what we need to do. And whatever we've got in the bank at the end of the month, if it's your wages, you'll get that.


If it's less than that, you'll get what we've got, what we can give you. And we showed them the plan. And the plan was this idea of creating prospects for response, we add a profit and then what happened was really amazing. We suddenly realized that there was nobody who was really cleaning up and fixing email marketing because the way my marketing was being done and taught for such a long time since the beginning was basically build a massive list of emails, subscribers, and then promote stuff at them. And then they'll either buy, die, or unsubscribe is basically the three things are going to happen. And actually the reason I think the reason that happened was because when email first came around, it was E-mail. It was electronic replacement for mail, and it's no longer that. Email is, it's so far away from letters. It's much more close to an app because the, the number of people who check their email on their phone these days is growing and growing, growing day on day and day. And that means now email, we should see it as an app. It's just sat there, snuggled in between TikTok and Instagram.


It's just sat there and people just check it out on there. So it's a new way of doing that. And what's really interesting about email. And the way that we've all been, um, sort of guided, like shaped down this idea of what email is, is we, as businesses don't want to send email because we feel like all we ever do is promote to people.


And peop, and we also know that people don't want to receive emails, marketing emails, because they don't want to be promoted to. And that means if all we ever do with email is promote to people. There's no good reason for them to open your emails, unless they're in that moment. Of what if they can actually, I might buy that thing that Teresa is talking about, that she talks about.


I'm really in the mood to invest in Teresa's. If there's no value in the email itself before the call to action before the author, before that, if there's no value before we get to that point. And there's no reason to open the email. That's why our open rates are all low. That's why people hate email marketing.


That's why we as businesses hate sending email marketing. Whereas if we change it, so it's actually helping people and the emails you send are actually valuable, then we'll enjoy and value sending them. We'll enjoy and value receiving them and we'll help people and we'll make sales.


Teresa: Yeah, so good. And like, okay, so I've got, I know I've said to these guys that have gotten, this is, this is going to feel to me like a very scrappy episode because there's so many different things I want to cover.


I want to pick their brains about, but the first thing I want us to talk about, and I said, first off the value thing, I totally get that. I, I, you know, we've talked about this before, I don't often sell my emails, it's all about value. It's often conversations. So I just told my list about my three-day retreat and how that went and what I thought and what I learned and, you know, and then I got lots of responses back.


Cause it's lovely. Cause they're like, “Oh, no way. That was amazing.” Or, you know, that's hilarious or whatever. So, so I get that, but there's one thing that you guys do that I am, I am like teetering on the fence here, because I'm doing it a little bit. And if you're, if you get my emails, you might have a heart attack now, but they're going to tell us why this is so good.


You guys email every day. Right. And I know there are some people are going to be sat there going “What's the actual hell.” And I want you to talk about that as a strategy in terms of why we should consider emailing more because I do it once a week at the moment, although I am, I've tipped into a few extra days last week and the week before I'm getting that.


But yeah. Why should we even consider that?


Rob: I think a really easy way to look at this is one of the problems with email marketing is the way that it typically works from a list growth perspective. So somebody registers for your webinar, or they give you their email address to download a lead magnet, or they buy a product from you or something.


And most of the time what those people are doing is they're signing up to get that thing, to get that immediate outcome. To buy that course, or to download that lead magnet or whatever. Uh, and a lot of the time what then happens is they randomly start receiving your emails when they didn't really expect to do that.


Now sure. You could put something on your landing page that says, and I'll also keep you up to date with everything that's going on. You can unsubscribe at any time, but that doesn't have a lot of meaning to it, or like, what's that really mean? And why? And then what happens is they start getting emails that are typically in the middle of whatever you happen to be doing at the time.


So somebody, and therefore it sort of makes sense that we kind of feel like we're just throwing people into the deep end. They really don't know what to expect. They don't know why they're getting these emails. And a lot of the time within a few days, they've forgotten who you are and like why they got on your list in the first place.


That's just the truth of it. And so what we wanted to see it as was if you make it, if your emails are relatively sporadic, like if they're once a week or they're a couple of times a week, and that, that means they might come out on different days of the week and at different times and all the rest of it, it feels very random. With Rob and Kennedy and the email marketing heroes as our brand. You know, that you're going to get an email every day. It's just like, that's part of what it is. You get an email from us every day and every day you're going to have a short tip, story idea, advice, or piece of inspiration to help you make more sales with email.


And that's the promise to you in the same way that somebody following you on Instagram is going to get probably a daily post or a couple of days, a couple of posts a day, whatever your Instagram frequency is. And the idea there is that as they're flicking through their feed, they're going to see stuff they're going to feel inspired.


They're going to like it. They might even share it to their story. They are going to see you. You know, I'm having a cup of tea today. That's all my story. I'm reading this book. What book are you reading? That's all my story. All of that engagement stuff just works by email as well.


Teresa: Did you look on my Instagram again Rob?


Rob: All of that stuff works on, on email as well. And so we just want to be able to show up more often and be in as many places as possible. It doesn't replace social media in any, in any sense. We love social media for building your audience, but building your business by email is how we always talk about it. So build it because selling on social is tricky.


It's a little bit icky. Oh, I made a poem. Um, and so if you can like build your audience on social, but then move them across the email. That works really, really well. So for us, it's just about like a smile when I say it, but, um, you literally just going to, you're going to join our list and we're going to email you every day.


And every day you're going to have a little bit more inspiration or ideas or tips or advice to go and do email. And if you translate that into your niche, whatever it is that you do, then who wouldn't want that in your audience, who, in your ideal customers, because let's face it, nobody wants a big tribe of people who are never going to buy anything.


We don't want a list of subscribers. We want a list of perfect potential customers. So. Who, who, when you think about who your ideal client is, why wouldn't they want to wake up with a bite-sized piece of information that's going to help them to do more of what it is that you help them with every day.


Teresa: Okay. So let's say I'm sat here listening to this, and I am like, “Okay, I get that. I get that. That's a good idea.” And thinking of it more bite sized, because we all know, and we've all seen emails that come out with 20 things in them. And I will, you know, sometimes I like to tell a long story and it takes me just to write it, but How do I actually do it?


Like, I know that sounds stupid, but I make a meal of my email on a Wednesday. I can assure you. I literally am like ohh this is going to be odd, you know, I've got to write a whole email. It'll take me probably an hour. Like if I had to do that every day, I just, yeah. How you, how do I do that?


Rob: Right.


Kennedy: Yeah. So this again, so for full disclosure, we had the same question about if we're going to email more often, so we can be valuable then how are we going to do that in a really actionable way so we can actually do it.


So bear in mind. I, my email, my list every day, Monday to Friday, Rob does the email marketing heroes list every day, seven days a week. And Rob also emails his other business list. Everyday as well. So like he's writing more than one. So we've got to have some good strategies to make this really practical here's and it's really, really simple.


It's taken us a lot of work to get that simple, you know, it's like anybody can create a complicated thing, but this is what we've called it down to. Every email has at least two pieces of value and one offer in it. So you don't need to ever think anymore about, “Ooh, am I going to do a value email this week of today?


Or am I going to do an offer email today?” If we can eradicate that question? That means there's another thing not to think about. So every one of our emails has these two pieces of value. One of them the first is the story. Right? Tell a story. Then you transition into what is the lesson, the moral, the thing that relates that thing as a, as almost like a, like a metaphor, a parable of that story for your audience.


That's the second piece of value because there's value in entertainment, which is the story. And the value might be that it's entertaining. It makes them feel something that could be a happy kind of entertainment. It could be a sad bit of entertainment. It can be anything. Um, and also. The other great thing about stories.


If you tell them about your life, it builds rapport and trust and you get those replies and engagement. The second piece of value is that what's the lesson from it. Okay. So that is, what's the parable, what's the, what's the, what's the value there. Then we just transitioned from that into, if you want to learn how our framework for doing that thing, then come and check out the league or come and check out our Facebook group or whatever the heck it might be.


So let's get an a, and then one of the great things is. There's always stories to tell. And we have, like, we have a whole, like two hour, 15 minute training on the daily email strategy that we actually teach. But one of the methods we have in there for coming up with stories that we have seven different ways to come up of stories. One of them is what is the least boring thing that happened to me in the last 24 hours.


Teresa: I was going to say this you're a hypnotist. And, uh, mine, but he did, like, I should imagine your life is whether exciting in there than mine.


Kennedy: I mean, our stories are anything from one of the other one, all the ones from the day when we talked about the daily email strategy was the way that I write my daily emails is I boil the kettle in the morning.


So it's about 5:30. I go, I go over into the, into the, into the kitchen, fill the cattle, flick it on. And I opened my laptop and I start typing. And before the cattle has boiled, I have finished my daily email.


Teresa: Get out of here. Get out of here.


Kennedy: Honestly, honestly a hundred percent, right. Because all I'm doing is as I'm filling the cattle, I'm thinking what was the least boring thing.


What's the most boring thing to happen in the last 24 hours? And it might have been, Oh, it was the fact that I wrote my email while I was boiling on the cattle yesterday. Okay, great. I'm going to write about that. And then my laptop's already open cause I'm flappin around. So click go. And then I go, Oh, I was boiling the cattle and I thought I'm going to see if I can finish writing my email before the end of it.


That's the story. That cause most people's problem is they put too much in the email, most emails we look at, we're like that's nine emails. People can't consume all of that stuff. And the great thing about stories is people imagine themselves in those stories, they imagine you and them in these stories so that it takes up more of their space in their heads psychologically speaking. And stories make things that are otherwise boring, instantly emotional. Instantly emotional, what you can do with a list or a check sheet or something like that. It becomes instantly. So now I was, so yesterday I wrote, I wrote my email while the cattle boil, I'm doing the same thing today.


It's not, not necessarily a race, that's the story. Okay, fine. And then I go write an email every day doesn't have to take more than four and a half minutes. If you just use a simple framework, like story lesson then offer. That's the value. I've taught them the parable now of the story. And then I'll go inside of our membership, the league of email marketing heroes we give you a 2 hour, 15 minute training about all the ways to come up with these stories, how to write better emails that are emotionally charging and give you four different frameworks, not just the story lesson offer framework to keep variety. If you'd like it, please click here. Four minutes. I described it out loud and I speak slower than I type.


So in four minutes.


Rob: What we're looking for is it's not the story that's going to change somebody's life. We're looking for the story that you can't wait to tell your partner when they get home from work that day. “Oh, you'll never believe the postman came. And then I saw him when he got to the end of the street and that dog tried to bite him again”, like you looking for the, like, uh, we, we, we just bought a new mattress and it came I've.


I haven't bought a new mattress before. I've never, I've never bought a mattress. I've made it to 33 and I've never bought a mattress because I inherited one from my parents initially and all that from my parents' house. Anyway, this mattress came and I couldn't believe it. It wasn't a rectangular, but like, like a box, I was expected a mattress ship parcel like two men with a mattress shape and it comes lucky impact. So my story was this box turned about outside. I didn't know what it was, turns out it was a mattress, but it's in a cute box who knows that happens. And that's the story. Now I can take that in any day. You can give me any niche on earth and I can take that in a direction that tells a lesson about that thing.


So an email marketing perspective, it's sometimes when you dig into the nitty-gritty of something and you really get in amongst the weeds, you realize it's not what you thought it was on the outside. Email marketing is a lot like that. People think that it's this spammy irritating thing, but it's actually brilliant.


And then you unpack it and talk from there. So you're looking for the small things that are happening everyday, but they're the stories that you can't wait to tell your partner when you get home, when they get home from work.


Teresa: Uh, do you know what, as I'm listening to this right one and I knew this had happened, so I wants to have you back on, because I feel like.


I feel like you are leading the way in terms of the email marketing space. Obviously not only from your knowledge, but from your example, you know, the fact that we do need to add value. I can name not that I would, but I can name a lot of people that literally email you when that. Advertising something and it's irritating as hell.


And I delete it, which is why I was so keen not to do that. But then I think in another breath, I hardly ever put a link to my website and therefore I don't sell a particularly well on emails. But as you're saying all this, I'm thinking about Instagram stories. I'm thinking about the, I did a story this morning about the fact that my daughter asked me whether she had to wear a peek, today.


And I said, “Well, do you normally wear one on Tuesday?” She's like, “Yeah.” And I said, “Okay, have, but I think it might be different this week.” So I'll check my emails as I check my emails I find out that tomorrow is Christmas jumper day and we don't own a Christmas jumper. So it's got this morning, I'm in bloody Tescos.


Oh, I just swore I never swore in my podcast. I mean that, wasn't the word I use it. I told my sister this morning. It's the mass I'm getting right. Does guys buying a God's out Christmas jumper? Like, you know, and then like how irritating this that's about it Christmas jump, how I prepared, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.


And of course I put that on my story because you know, that's kind of funny thing. Oh, did you see my story the other day? I know Kennedy, you sometimes see my stories, but like, so it was, it was, um, we put our decorations up, but my husband does not like Christmas.


Kennedy: He wasn't a happy lad was he?


Teresa: He was not like I kept filming him without him really?


Like, I'd start talking too many, 10 right now I'd be filming. And I'd like, “Would it help if I put Christmas music on?” He's like, “No.” And someone who follows me screenshot his face and they were like, look at his face. It's brilliant. He was livid. Like, not like. He is the Grinch, but like that, and the jumper thing gets loads of reactions.


Cause people love that stuff.


Rob: And you know what, just in that story about Paul being a Grinch, then you have literally just given us at least three emails worth of content there, three emails worth of stories in that one little, what you consider to be asked already about having this conversation.


Teresa: I mean, that's crazy.


That's and maybe it's a case of, we've just got to reframe how we think about these things rather than, you know, cause like I said, I literally sit down like writing an email.


Rob: But imagine, but if you think about it, think about it. Another app that's on their phone. It's just like Instagram, because that's how people see it. They open it up and they go, that's a really cool thing. And if you can be the person who raises the smile or makes them feel anything when read in an email, you stand out immediately.


Teresa: Yeah. Yeah, no, that's so cool. Okay. So I want to just, I want to talk about the selling thing, but actually you've, you've kind of alluded to it because obviously what normally happens is either you are one of those email people that literally doesn't email ever. Because there's no value because they're not interested in giving you value.


And then when they want you to buy something now bombard you and literally bombard you. Or you're a bit in the middle, like me, who wants to give you the value emails you weekly to still love on you and keep in touch and have chats and conversation. But then when I go into a sales mode, I increase that, that email a lot. And I might go every day or every other day or something. And you're obviously at the other end of the scale where it's like you're emailing every day. So do you think one as a sales strategy, how does that work? And two, do you then up your game when there is a, so I've just told everybody about I'm doing a new course in January.


Like, would you up your game at that point when there was something to sell?


Kennedy: Hmm, interesting. I mean, so what, what we gotta remember is that an email subscriber does not know the difference. They don't know whether they're in a campaign like an automation, or they're getting your newsletter.


We call them snowball emails, your, your individual emails that you throw out, they don't know the difference. And what's nice is if, when someone joins your email list, we, the metaphor we use for our email marketing is a train. And the reason we think of as a train is that each email campaign is like a train carriage.


So if, when someone joins your email list, the first thing we want to put them through was that welcome on board sequence. We, we call it a getting to know you sequence because they get to know us. You get to know our, we, we get to know them and a whole, and a whole bunch of things are building up authority and credibility and vulnerability and stuff in the four emails.


But that every day. So there's one email every day. And then the next train carriage is what we call an overture campaign, which is where we introduce one of our products. Because if somebody wasn't to go through an overture campaign first, and you're just like talking about this product, assuming they already know what it is, there's a massive disconnect immediately.


So we put them through an overture campaign to introduce the core beliefs, the core ideas, and make some sales that product initially. And because that's daily as well. When let's say, I mean, there might be in our system right now. I think there's six or eight different train carriages before they end up getting tagged with, now send them the snowballs, now send them the daily, regular, real time emails. Because all of our other campaigns


Teresa: Sorry, during all this, they're not getting those daily ones.


Rob: Know the difference, particularly. So like it's of the same in style, in the same infrequency. And so as somebody who's coming through it, they've opted in, they're being told they're going to get daily emails and they start to get daily emails.


The first four, I suppose they're fairly clearly an automation. Cause that's the welcome sequence. Like it's very clearly welcome on board. After that, uh, they look and sound and feel and smell and taste like daily emails.


Kennedy: Right, right. Yeah. Raspberry flavored. Um, and then at the end of the train carriages, that's when they get tagged with, Hey, now you can get the snowballs.


And because they're sent daily, there's no change in service because nobody likes when you turn up to the train platform and there has been a change in service. It really disconnects people. What people really want is they just want you to show up. When you say you're going to show up and that's what this really allows you to do.


So that's the whole idea.


Teresa: So did you ever go from weekly to daily? And if so, how, how did they take that? Just thinking of myself, if I wants to up my emails, how would I do that?


Rob: In our business? We started from daily, from, from the beginning pretty much, or that we were very close anyway. Like it was three or four times a week.


And then we would just where we've found our feet with it and then it became daily. So that was quite straightforward. Um, however, Kennedy definitely went, I mean, Kennedy in one of his businesses went from, I would say almost sporadic to daily. Like he went from being like promotional, cause you hadn't opened closed membership.


That was like, it was very promotional for a bit. And then it was closed for a bit. And so I took to being open all the time and therefore switched to daily. The way that we tend to tell people to do that is because if you go like. Let's just go to the extreme for a second. If your emails are like once every couple of months or once a month and you go a day, that's going to be the worst thing you'll ever do.


Uh, the goal really would be to start by emailing your list and say, listen, “You joined my list because you want help with X, Y, Z problem. And I haven't really been here to help you with that. And I'm really sorry. So I'm going to start showing it more often. You're going to get emails from me once a week, maybe a couple of times a week.


If that's going to be too much or you're not interested anymore, that's fine. Just scroll down and click unsubscribe. And you won't get anything and that's fine.” And then slowly start to step it up as you feel that the engagement of your list increase and you will, as the minute you start to do this, you'll start to see more.


I think a hundred percent of people we've told this to who've implemented it have started seeing more people, replying, more people saying this is awesome. Every day in our Facebook group, pretty much every day, definitely every week in our Facebook group for members of the league, our program, we back out people saying my engagement is up.


My replies are up by a mile. Just from, just from emailing more often, even if they're using the same tune in the same style and everything. So step it up. Once you get to a point where you're comfortably emailing weekly, then you can start to step that up again. It's just about showing up and saying, look, “I want to help you more often.” Because that's what you're actually doing.


That you're actually just saying, “I want to turn it more often. I want to be most of our emails, like less than 175-180 words. I want to turn up every day with a short bite sized piece of inspiration and just tell your subscribers, you're going to do it and give them the option to unsubscribe for that. If you want to take it to the extreme. We haven't done this. Um, but, but we know people who have, if you want to take to the extreme, you could create a separate landing page specifically to get your daily emails and promote that to your list for a bit saying, “If you'd like to hear from me every day with a short story, tip advice, or idea, or a piece of inspiration for whatever it is, then go and opt in over here.”


Um, and you can definitely do that. That works really well as well. The other thing is we do give people the option to opt out of daily emails. So at the bottom of every email, above the main, proper legal unsubscribe link that your email marketing platform forces you to have directly above it. We have a thing saying “Don't wanna hear from us everyday, anymore.


That's fine. Click this link will take you off the daily email list.” And they then only hear from us when we're doing some sort of promotion. So like, Oh, it's black Friday, that's due black Friday. They'll get that. And they can opt out of that if they want to. We're doing a five day challenge. Okay, great.


We can email all the non-daily people about that. And again, they can say, “Oh, this is not for me.” And they can opt out of that as well.


So he's this sort of granular unsubscribed thing.


Kennedy: Here's what's really interesting about emailing daily as well, because one of the questions that often comes up, especially from like listeners, and if we're talking to a group of whatever is, um, is what about spam complaints?


What about that deliverability thing? Like, you're going to be emailing a lot that that's kind of sounds like spam. Actually one of the traits of spammers is because they get caught by all these spam traps is they actually change email addresses and IP addresses and stuff a lot, which means what you actually want to do is by increasing your email frequency, your giving g-mail and everybody else.


More evidence of how good an email are you are. If you're only emailing once a month, they don't have much evidence of how good you are. And so you could even look more like a spammer. Whereas if your emails are using this kind of strategy where there's more value in them, are you doing it more frequently, your open rates, your click through rate, your purchase rates, your reply rates, all of those engagement indicators are going to be higher and you're doing, and you get in the more often.


So you're going to get a higher. A higher rating and there's a few different messages of this is the software you can use to actually plug it and find out what your score is in terms of email deliverability. And we plugged ours, our system into it. We use, we use keep infusion soft for our emails and ours, even though we'd been emailing for how long have we been doing daily for Rob a couple of years is it?


Rob: For this? Why can't it be more than a year for this list? But I mean, so this particular list, um, maybe since January.


Kennedy: Okay. Cool. And we've got 95 out of a hundred is our score because we're showing up every day and giving evidence, it'd be like, it'd be like your credit score if you've never had credit your credit scores in the toilet.


Teresa: Yes. No, it's such, such a good point. And like you said, I think, the ones who go from nothing to something, then that feels more like spam. Like, but when you expect something, it's the, it's the know, it's the knowing is that it's the, so when I emailed my list the other day on a random day, I was like, listen, there's two reasons there in this one, I'm taking three days off, which is very unusual.


And then two, I might mix it up a bit and I might email, you want to feel like it. And I might do a bit more, you know? And so it's almost like just managing their expectations, but. Okay, another question. And this is something that came up, uh, I did a talk for your membership and, uh, this came up in this and I, I, this is on the reasons why you want, because I want you to answer this.


So one of the things we talked about and you're going to like, you're going to be happy on it, I don't know. Right. So one of the things you talked about was cleaning your list, right? And basically knowing whether. Because sometimes people have got old email lists sometimes. Like for instance, one example of mine was I had a amazing lead magnet work brilliantly at a conference


I couldn't attend, but they opted in to get this amazing thing. And actually as, as leads go, they've not been great. Like they literally opted in and never did anything again. And, and I saw that, you know, people were not opening emails. So I sent an email like going, “Hey, was it something I said?” And one lady turn around and say, “I open every email that that you sent Teresa.” And yet, even on that email that she opened and replied, it still says she hadn't opened it. So one explain why that might be the case. Cause you've, you've said something to me that I didn't know about open rates and what gets shown or not. And then how do I know whether the email list is any good, then that I'm currently using?


Kennedy: Yeah. The terrifying thing is that when you hit send on an email from your marketing platform, whichever one, it happens to be, we work with all of them.


Teresa: Yeah.


Kennedy: What happens then is Gmail and the others all listened to what happens. They are very clever and they know what your open rate is. They know what your engagement rate is.


They know that you've sent an email out to a hundred people and one person opened it. So they're going to go, I want to keep an eye on you. And then they do it. And then you email the next month and you do it. And one person opens it and go. This person's stuff's probably not that good. So they're going to start moving you from the priority primary inbox to the promotions.


And then slowly as time goes on, you're going to get stuck. You're going to be damaging your reputation. That's what's going to happen. So that's the first thing is the people who are not opening your emails are damaging. It's critically damaging your ability to deliver your emails to the people who do want to receive them.


So those people staying on your list, it'll hurt, but first of all, if they're not engaging, You can't be giving them value. So they get no value from you. Secondly, they're not engaging. So you can't be making sales from them. Nobody's winning in this situation and you're stopping your ability to deliver value and get sales and the people who do so literally it's a three-dimensional losing situation.


So we do have to keep an eye on it. Um, how do we do it though?


Rob: So the big thing here to focus on is what your metric is for not being engaged anymore. So to bring up that point, you mentioned before, the one thing we do know is the open rate tracking from our email platforms, point of view, active campaign ConvertKit Infusionsoft, whatever you use.


It's all inaccurate. Uh, and the reason it's inaccurate is that the way it works is basically the inside an email when you send it, there is a small image, a small tracking pixel, a one pixel by one pixel square image. And when you send that out, your email platform is looking for that appearing on somebody's screen.


And the problem is that lots of platforms and lots of email things, and lots of even like most Android phones will block that from being displayed. And so if your email platform can't see that pixel being fired. It doesn't report back to active campaign or convert kit or whatever that that's happened.


And therefore, if you most Android phones block it. So think about how many people, you know, who've got an Android phone. If you use like Missoula Thunderbird, the people who make Firefox have an email platform called Thunderbird, which is becoming increasingly popular because there they really put your privacy first.


And so, and that's one of the things that they do Gmail by default. If you don't have select show images by default, like, you know, have you ever seen an email and there's clearly an image in it, but you have to like click around to get the image to display. That means your tracking pixel didn't display either.


Cause that's an image. And so for that reason, it's, it's basically always wrong. So your open rates are always lower than you thought they were. It's one of the reasons. It's. Yeah, absolutely. It's one of the reasons, but they're consistently inaccurate, so it's worth monitoring all the time because it's never going to be like wildly accurate one day and then go back to being inaccurate the next.


So it's good.


Teresa: You are increasing or deceasing, you are still doing that totally wrong.


Kennedy: Yeah. It's relevant to itself rather than the actual truth. Yeah. Yeah.


Rob: And so. Uh, one of the things, one of the benefits of making sure that we put email stuff for people to click on and go and look at in every email is the click tracking is perfectly accurate.


I'll take it. Yeah.


Teresa: We lost Rob there, Oh no. He's back now. So sorry you were saying, so the click is accurate and it's accurate, but. So it didn't say what w what, I didn't quite hear what you were going to say, but can I just say quickly then jump in, but not many people click the click, like, so again, you know,


Kennedy: so, so, okay, so this is the thing, right?


So let's go to some psychology now. That's all Fang, of course, uh, which is whatever we do anything. We interact with anybody by email in real life, whatever we are training each other. How to respond and how to engage in that situation. Right? So every time we hang out, Teresa, we have a good laugh. It would be quite weird if we had a conversation and we didn't laugh in, it would be because we've trained into that.


That's kind of how we, how we communicate. And similarly, when someone joins your email list, we talked about our getting to know you sequence. So you're welcome on boarding, whatever the heck it happens to be. Right. One of the things we have to do during that is we have to train people. How we want them to interact with our emails and because the only time most people train people to click is when it's something to buy.


That means we're not training them to click and that, and feel that there is a reward for it. So in all of our emails, There should be a click. There should be, Oh, Hey, go check this out. This'll be because what we want to do is you want to associate the feeling in their minds of getting they click on a link in your email.


They get a reward from it. That's an old piece of psychological research called Pavlov's dog. Right. And you might have heard of this. You may not have heard of it. This is the idea that this crazy man called Pavlov a good fella, nice laugh. You know, he used to come out for tea and he's lovely that. And he, he would basically train these dogs.


He would feed some dogs and then as soon as he was feeding them, he would ring a bell. Here's interesting fact for you, we've trained our kittens on this exact thing. So every time we feed the kittens, we ring this bell. And that means that in the future, what puddle have discovered is if he just rings the bell, the dog will salivate and they'll run towards where they get fed because they associate the sound of the bell with getting fed and the same in so Nova and I have all kittens.


So. So what we doing in terms of that with our emails, are we training people that, well, I only click what I want to go and buy something. Well, that means you don't get to get people to the sales page to make your sales argument. You're that wonderful sales page that you had designed and you spent labored over the headline, nevermind the rest of it.


And how does it look? Well, if the only time you're not going to go and click on it, if, as if they've got high buyer intent, anyway, it means that's mostly wasted. So, and not, not the wasted in the good way either. The problem is. What we want to do instead is we want to have it. Some people click because they feel that they're going to get a positive reward from it, which is they gonna see value, and they're going to feel good about it.


So we want to do that from that, getting to know you sequence time, all the way through our emails. Every single time you email, you want to be asking for some kind of interaction, whether that's a click or it could be a reply. I mean, one of our getting to new sequence emails has a thing in saying it asks a question, basically saying, “Give us a reply.” Again, getting a reply is a really good indicator of you not being a spammer and also have a, it's a really good way of showing the email providers that you are valuable, that you are real and that people value you.


Rob: Ironically, even if people reply, send, “Stop emailing me.”, it's actually helping your ability to deliver. Um, so I think one of the things that's really interesting is this we track in terms of this engagement stuff, we track it obviously over a period of time. So let's, let's face it. Let's put it this way.


If I email you. You're on my list and I email you every single day, 365 days a year. And every single one of those emails has the ability for you to go and look at my core program, our membership, the league, or whatever. It's got a link for you to go and look at something. And over 30 days you don't go and look at it once.


You're probably not that interested in what we've got to say all the 60 days, even more so. So we, our metric moves around sometimes it's the 80 days. Sometimes it's 60 days. We're moving that around a bit. But if over a month or two of us emailing you every day, you don't go and look at our thing once.


We're going to consider you to be relatively disengaged. We sent you 30 to 60 emails and you haven't clicked. So all we're going to do at that point is just raise a little kind of a little thing and say, “Hmm, maybe we should drop Teresa into that sequence.” There are revival campaign, which is just designed.


It's 10 emails over 14 days, and it's just designed to get you to click and go and look at something. So, first of all, that's a free piece of content. Then we've got something else in the second phase. And the third phase we move on to literally saying you haven't clicked on anything that we've sent you for the last 60 days over 60 days.


So we're just going to go ahead and unsubscribe you, unless you click this to say, you're still interested in, you want to be here.


Teresa: That's really good. That is a really good point of if you've given me the opportunity to do that. And I haven't. And then you've got that much. Um, cause this is the other thing.


If they're only meeting once a month, which lots of people once a month is still slightly out of their comfort zone. You've got 12 emails. Well, How many emails did we get like that is not nowhere near enough to understand someone's behavior patterns or whatever, you know, whereas you are at least giving them the opportunity.


And then the fact that you say you've not clicked on anything. And it's such a good point, because I guess in my mind, I was trying to serve the value too much in terms of, I don't want to be irritating. I don't want to get you, you know, I'm not trying to sell to you and if I'm not asking you to click, but I'm not training them to click either, you know.


Kennedy: You're actually training them not to click by doing that.


Teresa: Yeah. And then when I want them to, it doesn't happen.


Kennedy: Yeah, because when people receive an email from Teresa, we want him to think I'm going to receive an email. I'm going to read an interesting story. It might be funny. You might be sad about frustrating and I'm going to learn something and there'll be something cool in it that I want to go and click and absorb every now and again, not every day, but every now and again.


Yeah, that to think. The other thing is. Um, and the reason to have an E a link in every single email where somebody can go and buy from you is really important because the old way of doing email marketing was to only email people when you want make a sale. We want people do to become the email marketing hero not just of your business, but actually to save email marketing from its terrible fate is actually to email people so that at the moment they are ready to buy, you are there.


And that's a very, very different thing.


Teresa: Okay. Right. So super conscious of time because we do love chatting and this is such a great subject. So let's then just very quickly talk about the open and cart scenario in the traditional sense of when you have an online product, you either do an open and closed cart scenario.


I, you get to a certain date. You open the cart, you shout about it, screen. You email everybody, you bombard them, and then you shut the doors. And then if you're terrible at email marketing, you don't email them again. Versus the, your thing is open all the time. Okay. So I want to ask two things about this. One how do you deal with it? If you do do an open and closed cart scenario? How, what if at this very point? No, this is a lie actually you do. There is something you could buy from me at this very point, because I've just opened the cart for this thing in January. But two weeks, a week ago, there was nothing you could buy from me.


So what clicks would I be putting in?


Rob: So what nobody wants to be is the business that just turns up and goes, “Right I've got something you buy now, everybody in, everybody in right now, and closing the doors now, see it, see you next, see you next year.” And then do it again. No ones to be that business. So in terms of where you're sending people, the first thing you're very likely to have is some core piece of content.


So you're very likely to have a podcast. So you could, you could, for example, take it and have it so that your podcast is, um, Uh, is like a thing that you pull small daily bits of bite-size lessons from, and then link people across to the podcast. So for this episode of the podcast, you could pull out a little story about something that happened in your life and relate it to something that we said.


And then the next day you do the same thing. The next day you do the same thing. And all you're doing is pushing people over to come and watch these piece of content, because it's actually just about, nobody's going to click it every day and go and listen to the episode every day, obviously. But you also are irritating people because there's value stuff.


But you've also got some value in the email itself. So every day, some people will click on the podcast episode and listen to it from the very first email you send the buyer and that's great because they're going to go and listen to it and absorb it. But then the rest of the emails, they're going to get a gig, going to give them more clarity, which is one of the big ways you deliver value to people.


There's just like a little form of clarity. They're gonna get more clarity. They're gonna get more insight. They get more ideas of application. Oh, but that's great. Teresa we're talking to Rob and Kennedy, and then she said this, and that means I can do that and that's really helpful too. Because what we want to do is we want to make sure that our daily emails in an open, close cart scenario are constantly are maintaining the relationship. Because maybe they just couldn't afford to buy it this time, but next time there'll be able to, well, maybe they haven't got time to implement it this time, but next time they will, or maybe they've just joined your list and they don't trust you yet, but next time they will.


And what you need to do is make sure that you're showing up every day so that you're there all the time. Not just when you want to make that sale.


Teresa: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I'd be putting clicks to like podcasts and lead magnets to anything else. That's like,


Kennedy: Your social media that you're already doing. Take up social media posts, wrap something around it in the email and say, Oh, we discussed this over on this post, or go take this poll or whatever it's going to be.


So you can definitely be doing it that way as well. And here's the other really cool thing is you don't only have to link to your own content. You can show your position in a marketplace by your ability to understand everything that's going on and say, “I saw this really good thing that Mary put on her blog the other day or, or whatever it might be.” To show your positioning in the market.


Teresa: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Okay. So one of the reasons people don't have a cart open scenario. I want, I don't know if they ever said it on the interview. So I won't say who said it, but someone once said to me that open and close cart scenarios is lazy marketing, uh, which. As a marketer, there is an element of me that the did agrees as someone currently with a closed cart.


Kennedy: I was a guilty party.


Teresa: And I've got to say, let's not judge. But I get it right, because this is one of the reasons why, well, there was a few reasons why I closed the cart for the Academy. Um, cause I wanted to review a few things and the price and blah, blah, blah. But one of the reasons is that actually I felt like I was.


Well, no, this is the truth. I didn't feel like I was constantly selling it because I wasn't constantly selling it, which is why no one was joining it. But I felt like with it just sat open. It was a bit in limbo. So tell me how that email thing works. Cause it's great. Cause you can constantly go, “Oh, when we did that in here.


Oh, and that's back in here. Oh. And check that out in here.” So is that. Do you feel like you'd never have to do a launch again, that it's just get on the emails and it'll start filling itself.


Kennedy: Right. So I think the thing is one of the things that we have to think about is if the only reason we're able to make sales is because the thing will be taken away.


And that's a, it's a, it's a scarcity thing is that is only one. A scarcity is only one element of an offer. So if we look at the way we structure sales pages or any kind of offer. Scarcity is only one of the pieces there's urgency. There is personal urgency that we can talk about all these different things.


There's always these things. So what we do is if we go back to the train carriages, we mentioned earlier, when someone joins our lesson, they go get into new sequence on the overture. We then go into a whole bunch of other campaigns that make an urgent offer which will go away. So one of ours is called a bribe campaign, which is, if you join our thing during this period of time in this three-day period, you'll also get this additional thing.


So we give them another compelling reason on top. Uh, another, another reason might be that there's, there's a certain special offer on or something like that. Or it might just be the we're introducing the product or focusing on a particular element of, of the product. So there's different ways of structuring different promotional campaigns. But then as Rob said before, the only reason by the time they've got to the end of our train and we've got all these different train cabbages at different campaigns, some of them I've got a videos and all this different stuff. The only reason they shouldn't have bought at that point is because if you think about marketing one Oh one, there's that what I call the four sided triangle of marketing, which is you've got.


The meat that you've got the message, the media and the market, you know, that classic triangle. And then there's the fourth side of the triangle, which is timing, which goes in the middle. Right. Okay. With, with your trend coverage, to your normal marketing, you can cover the three sides of the triangle. You can get your message, right?


You can get the market, right. You can get the media, right. Yeah, but you promoting it all on, but if the timing's not right for some one, because it's something I'm thinking about later up, then they're going to get to the end of your emotional campaigns. And that's what the daily emails are going to take care of.


So I think, just think about. What are the other elements that I can add in that doesn't involve opening and closing the actual membership, but are there, is there a bonus and that's going to go away and then there's a different bonus. We've got like three or four different bonuses, depending on when you join.


You'll get a different bonus now. Obviously the bonus, the previous bonus will go away. So don't hang around for too long to see what the other ones are, but that's what I, that's another way of doing it.


Rob: But what we get is with the daily thing, it's really nice as we get, uh, we get the lovely benefit of having both being open all the time and just having people clicking and buying because the timing is right for them.


Like people just read that one testimonial from that one member who posted in our Facebook group yesterday about a live and present and current result. And they go, wow, I'm just like that part. I'm just like Sheila, I'm going to go and join and they click and buy. But then about once every, I don't know, it's not as calendarized as, as it could be.


Like maybe once every six to eight weeks, once every six to eight weeks, we do some kind of promotion campaign live to like try it out. And then if it works, we automate that and add it to the end of our trend. So like the, the time between somebody joining our list and starting to get. Actual day, the emails is like getting longer, but it doesn't feel like that to them.


But what we do is that that Kennedy said, and it's all right, has all of the urgency and the scarcity and the, the, the excitement, even if it's not urgency and scarcity, it's got excitement wrapped around it because it's a challenger, it's a webinar. It's something that we're doing that's timely. And so it doesn't feel any different because it just slots into our daily emails, our daily emails


Period of time a week or two about that thing. And then they'd go back to normal daily emails again. And so that th those periods of time come with all of that hyped up stuff that comes with a launch mentality, but without any of the stress that I knew, the worry that launches bring with it, cause they're usually quite chilled.


And then you go straight back to the daily emails again. And if somebody just happened to miss it because they're on holiday or they're, they were busy. It's not too late for them to buy thing.


Kennedy: Here's the other thing though, as well. The problem with closing the cart is the people you're acquiring onto your list organically now can't buy anything.


And the reason most businesses go out of business. And I talk from experience of having that sit down conversation with the staff in September, 2019, uh, which I have to say, I'm not a voice, otherwise I'll cry. Um, but, but the reason that we went out of money is because we can't turn subscribers into customers fast enough.


So we ended up with a cash flow deficit. Whereas if the cart is open all the time and we were bringing people in and they can buy and they can add to our cashflow, then we're in a much more positive situation with the business rather than saying. “Well, you want to give us some money?” “No, no, thank you. No, thank you.


No, no, not right now. It's not quite the time is not quite right for me.” Which, which sucks.


Teresa: And I have to say, because I haven't done a close cart scenario until I've just closed it literally about a month ago. And one of the reasons I closed it was because we were putting on our first ever online event. And I think my Headspace, I wanted to be able to go, right.


That's it. No one else can join it. I need to think about that. I can now focus on this. But it didn't feel very nice. Like the fear of. “Oh, hang on. No one can give me any money.” Like that didn't feel good. And that, that worries me. And as I planned next year, and as I work out what I'm going to do and whether I am going to open it and close it again, or whether I'm gonna leave it open or whatever, it doesn't feel great that, that there's periods where they literally can't buy from me. Like, you know, I do a 90 day program, which has a start date and an end date. So that's an intake and it has to be done at that time because we all start at the beginning, we all end at a similar amount of time or whatever. But, you know, if that makes sense, but not having something that you know, or the new course I'm doing, which is they follow me along life again, we'll start at the same date.


We've got to do it in that time period. So. So, yeah, I do, but it's that constant drip feeding. And at the moment, the emails were not performing enough to want to do that. So,


Kennedy: And what's really interesting is you have already created some events that have the same effect as a “Ooh it's closing.” urgency. So for example, rather than going, it's closing, you could have said “Get in now because the live event starts on the 1st of September. So get in before that.”, that has the same urgency or “We did one where our price was going up. So anybody who joined our membership after a certain date, the new, the price of membership was going to be higher.” We got a whole bunch of new people join just to beat that price increase so you can do it. There's other things going on that are naturally going to happen within the membership. I mean, think about if you're having a guest training, that's a perfect way to go “You can join this guest training live in the work, along with you. It's going to be absolutely amazing.


Joined before this date.”, that's a really effective model for doing the same thing. So you can still quit urgency without having actually close off your ability to make sales.


Teresa: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, boys, I knew this would be amazing. I knew you'd be wonderful. You are very smart, man. As I suspected for a long time, because every time I speak to you, I saw my manage just like blurt my guts out and just tell you everything.


I did say to Rob, not that long ago that I watched one of his hypnosis events that he did live, and there's no way, no way on this earth I could be in an actual room while Rob is doing this stuff, because I feel like I'd be way too easy to hypnotize, but honestly, you guys are just amazing and I'm on it.


I am so impressed with like, where you've gone with this and how much you've put into this and how much you know about this. And I just think it's brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. Thank you so much for coming on. We will obviously link up to everything that you guys do in the show notes. Obviously, if you're not subscribed to their emails, then please do go and do that because that's how you get to see it in practice and how it works.


So thank you so much, guys. It's been a pleasure having you on.


Rob: Thanks.


Teresa: What did you think? I love that, it was really good. They are such nice guys, I have such a laugh with them. We always have a giggle when we see each other and they're so smart with this stuff. Like I honestly, I don't have a niche and I kind of choose me up a bit that maybe I should, and then I don't want one.


And then I love everybody I work with here that I don't want to like, not have some of those people. Yeah. It's really tricky. But anyway, they they've niched down and they've done a really good job and I'm so glad they are able to, to come on and talk about this stuff and I can share it with you. Also, if you're in the Academy or if you want to join the Academy next year, they are doing a workshop.


So we're going to go deeper in, on the stuff they talked about. They're gonna give us the strategies. They're going to talk us through the processes. It's going to be great. So, they're great guys. I really like them. I've linked up to everything in the show notes. And one last reminder, one last reminder, go and head over to teresaheathwareing/buildmylist because I want you to build that list.


It's one of the biggest assets you will ever have in your business. And I am so passionate about it, that I want you to come and join me. It's going to be great fun. We're going to kick off that year in style. Okay. I will leave you to it. Don't forget to check out this Thursday's episode of the Small Business Superstar I've recorded so many of these, they are amazing by the way. I love them. I've learned lots of things. It's cool. Okay. Yeah. Have a great week and I will see you then.