This week’s episode is with the amazing Matt Barnett, the founder of Bonjoro. As a frequent user of Bonjoro, I wanted to take the chance to showcase how you can use them within your business. With a focus on loving your existing customers, this is a great episode for those that are looking to make the most of the clients and customers they already have. This is often something we ALL forget to do so I know this episode is going to be valuable to absolutely everyone.
KEY TAKEAWAYS COVERED IN THE PODCAST
- Technology can allow us to do some incredible things, creating an endless list of opportunities for those that have online businesses.
- Your business shouldn’t be faceless, even if you’re a team of 100 people you need to ensure there is a ‘friendly’ face to your business – even if it’s just a meet the team page.
- If you’re using Bonjoro, it should be a second touchpoint with your potential customers as you want it to encourage them to take the NEXT step in your funnel. You want to use it to surprise people and show them that you care.
- To get your customers to superfan status you need to nurture your relationships with each and everyone of them.
- If you’re going to give ‘swag’ away to your customers, you need to ensure you’re staying away from the traditional. It needs to come from the heart and make someone open it and say wow.
- If you’re looking to make strong connections with people you need to make gestures that impress them, however you need to consider the ROI.
- Don’t get blind sighted by growth hacks and shortcuts, you need to find stuff that works for you. Yes, there will be stuff that is mundane and repetitive but if you do it every day, it works! There is no quick win.
- Don’t outsource the stuff that matters. You need to automate processes but never your relationships.
THE ONE THING YOU NEED TO REMEMBER ABOVE ALL ELSE…
Having a personal connection with your customers is the key to building a personal brand.
HIGHLIGHTS YOU SIMPLY CAN'T MISS
- Introducing Matt – 04:00
- What is Bonjoro? – 11:15
- Turning people into customers – 17:09
- Creating ‘superfans’ for your business – 27:30
- Real life Bonjoro examples – 33:40
- Are bold gestures key? – 44:10
Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the podcast. So couple of things to kick straight off with. Firstly I'm not doing this in my office, so I apologise if the sound quality is a little bit differently. And secondly I'm sure you can hear from my voice that I have got a bit of a cough and a cold. And obviously when you do those stuff that I do, i.e., pretty much everything I do is speaking, that is a bit of a problem. And it particularly is a problem because tomorrow I am … Well I'm currently sat in Harrogate which is why I'm in a hotel room, in the UK. And I'm at a conference tomorrow with Professor Philip Kotler, who basically, if you did a degree in marketing, you'll know exactly who he is, because that's the book we learn from.
That's the kind of … Oh I don't know how to describe it but basically he's like the main person that you learn marketing from. So to be on the same stage as him is phenomenal. And obviously, it's a little bit frustrating that I've been run down with a cough and a cold and it hasn't quite gone. So this is probably going to be the shortest intro that you've ever had. Now, this week's episode, thank god, is an interview or otherwise I would be in trouble. So this week I am interviewing Matt Barnett who is the founder of Bonjoro. Now this interview was fab for two- three good reasons actually. There's many more, but three main ones.
Firstly, I love Bonjoro and I use it in my business, and obviously we're going to explain to you what Bonjoro is. And personally I think I could find a way for it to work for pretty much every business out there and a way for you to stand out from your competitors and help not only convert more customers, but then love the customers you've got. So I'm going to be talking about how I use it, he talks about how other people use it. And I am going to put a link in the show notes, which as you'll know is teresaheathwareing.com/92 as in the nine and two. And I'm going to put my affiliate link, it is an affiliate link in there. So by all means if you don't want to click on that, no worries. Just Google Bonjoro, you'll find them.
But it's a great, great platform. I do love it. And you know full well that I don't often have affiliate stuff. I don't promote loads of different systems. I only promote stuff that I absolutely love working with. So that was the first reason that he was great. The second reason he was great is because he loves talking about how to love your customers and how you can go that extra mile for them and some of the cool stuff you can do to really build that relationship with them. Which, if you follow me you'll know that that is a fairly big part of what I like to talk about. Because that's the thing that people forget. They're so desperate to suddenly bring on a customer that once they've got then they don't really love them. So as you know and I'll talk about it in this interview, anybody's who's in the academy gets the world from me because I think they're wonderful.
And then the third reason was because on our brief discussion before we then started the interview, I found out that even though he's in New Zealand currently, lives there. He actually went to school, seriously about 10 minutes from where I grew up and lived my entire life. So how funny is that? But he's such a nice guy. I think you're going to really enjoy this interview. Lots of good tips and things for loving those customers. And yeah, I'm just going to leave you to it because I've got to rest my voice. So I hope you enjoy it.
Here it is. Okay. I am really excited to introduce the very lovely Matt Barnett to the podcast. Matt, how are you doing?
Great. Thanks, Teresa. Wonderful to be here.
Oh, I am really excited to have you here. In fact, we've just been chatting before we went live, talking about the fact that even though Matt is now in … Are you in Sydney or you've moved out of Sydney did you say?
Sydney, but kind of on the outskirts. So yeah…
Okay. So even though it's early morning for him, evening for me, he actually went to school in the town that I grew up in, which is crazy, crazy small world. So we've just been having a really good chat about that. Kind of got a bit distracted about the podcast, but anyway let's crack on and do the podcast. So Matt in case my audience don't know who you are, they might not know who you are because I think the product is the name that they will know, do you want to explain to my audience who you are and how you got to do what you're doing right now?
Yeah, sure. So my name's Matt. I moved to Australia from the UK maybe kind of 10 years ago chasing surf as you do when you kind of in your 20s. Found tech, started building tech products. So we run a company called Bonjoro, which you may or may not have heard of. I'm actually an artist and a product designer by trade. So how on earth I ended up building a tech company, I'm not sure. I can't remember why but here we are.
The whole reason it started is because we used to run an agency. And moving to Australia we still had clients in the UK and the US. And we used to get these clients coming in. And we were quite frightened if they ever met us. We've got a lot of kind of charisma. We were a little bit brat-ish I would say. So as these leads were coming in, we used to send them videos. We used to send them comedy videos. So we'd get these leads coming from Ogilvy and these giant agencies. We used to get the ferry to work, so I'd be on the ferry, go past the opera house having a chat on a video. Like wind on my hair probably couldn't understand me.[Jamie 00:05:54] having a bit of a good time with the coffee peep. And we send these videos to these pretty serious leads.
And they loved it. And it was a creative industry. And what we were after was going into your own pitch, this agency that we had.
And then we know what you guys do still, but come in and see us when you're next in London, when you're next in the States. And it was kind of a bit of an eye opener and we were like, “Well this is interesting.” You have the videos where you get a personality across which is a big part of our brand, which is how we get it and then it kind of sale. And then one of his clients one day was like, “Hey, there's this video email thing, can I they use this?” And I was like, “Yeah, sure. It looks like a dog's dinner, doesn't really work that well but go for it.”
And then a few of their customers came through them to us and they were like, “Oh, could we also use this?” And we're like, “Hang on, hang on. This isn't really a product.” And then you know against all kinds of, I guess advice in the world, me and my CTO were having a beer and I was like, “You know we have to build this?” And he goes, “I knew you were going to say that.” I'm already building one company. He's like we really shouldn't start another one. I was like, “I know we shouldn't, but we also should.”
Yeah. So Bonjoro was born and was there a transition period? Where you went, actually this is… Is there still the agency or did the agency just get shelved? And how did that work?
Yeah so we run both of them. Bonjoro starts to grow faster. I actually did the agency, we kind of looked at him, I said, look, well, well Joe has got much, much higher growth rates. It's now over. Can't taken it. Maybe like a year ago. I mean Bonjoro is only like two and a half years old. So it over took it pretty quickly.
Grew pretty, pretty rapidly. And you see that and you go, well you have to kind of follow the kind of business is going faster. But then the agency, which we had to go buy off then had it's best than a year in doubled. I'm like, “what the hell?” And so we're in this weird place where we have these two businesses and we're like, “right, I guess we need to run both.” And, and there's challenges there because they both have different funnels that they both live in culturally and they have different business models. So really, really need to get to a stage where we can split them out and so like, well the one we're moving to London like full time and we're looking for someone to kind of help come aboard and lead that because I think as a leader you really need to kind of put all your focus on one business at a time.
Yeah. It's hard to try and especially when there are two very different businesses, and two very different audiences. Granted they're not a million miles away from each other. It's not like you're selling, you know, I don't know dogs and shoes or something, but they are- they're two very different structurally like you said, how you manage them, who are in that business, how you market them. So yeah, I totally get that. So, so it was his Bonjoro your thing that you, you want to focus on or as you know, is that kind of where your baby is that you want to grow and get bigger and bigger?
Yeah. So again Bonjoro is exciting because, so here's the crops. It's not a video business. It's basically a relationship business. So really what we discovered was by chance but I guess we were kind of already doing it and that many businesses I'm sure do every day. So it's, if you invest time in customers at some points on the journey, that's usually appreciated. And I think in a world where we have so many online businesses and online interactions, that's been diminished. It used to be a lot. We used to, we used to have the grocer and, he's known you all day to get the butcher kind of stuff and then you've kind of dropped off over time in pursuit of scale and bringing that humanity back to that, so it's the customer journey. Turns out people like that because we're social animals, we enjoy interactions.
I think, you know most of my interactions get more lonely. So what Bonjoro is doing is just say, “hey look, yeah, at some points in the customer journey, you need to get personal. Here's some tools that help you do it, you know, go and be you.” And that works really well. But if you take that ethos and you run with it, then you go, well it's much more than just like what the company is now is much more than just videos. The question is where else on a customer journey does it make sense for you to invest time, and where it makes sense to go and use the automation, which you know, is still very, very useful. That's a pretty big goal, and a big shift in how people do business. And that's I think, pretty exciting.
Yeah, and I think you're right. I think there's a few things you've, you've talked about there that I want to touch on were first off, we're in a world where Tech is sometimes seen as pulling us further away from each other because of the fact that you're not walking into your local shop who knows your name and you're buying something and he goes, “oh I got this thing cause I know you like this,” and that sort of thing. However, in some ways the fact that you're in Sydney and I'm in Shropshire and we're having a conversation face to face, it's crazy. It's, you know, it's a world that you look at and think, “oh my actual goodness, that is phenomenal isn't it?” So that I love and like I said, I think the more the online stuff happens, the more opportunities there are, but also the more people want it. They want that personal touch, they want that kind of way in which you can break through that online stuff and actually see a human at the end of it and to actually see the person who you're interacting with.
What is Bonjoro?
Do you see that- I want to talk about obviously the point is are building those relationships online, but yeah. Do you see especially in the agency sector still lots of agencies who are so faceless? Like even to the point I was looking at an agency not that long ago- even to the point where they don't have some pictures of who they are or a list of staff and it's like, why would anybody, in my mind, why would anybody want to deal with you if I literally have no idea who you are?
That's faceless. Yeah. So the other day, we're talking about they're building more lead magnets and stuff for us. And I was like, “why don't we just do a plug and play about us page?” Because so many people don't have a good ‘about us' page. I'm like, “it's very simple. You just put some images up. It puts a video of your teams be like, you look at that and go, oh that's Brian. That's Jim.”
Like re-humanise it. It's almost like the piece of the website that gets left to the end, but I'm like, it's probably the first thing you should do because your people are going to be the majority of your brand. Especially, when you're starting up, like a brand isn't a logo, a brand is an ethos. It's values, you know those imagery and stuff that comes on. But that's, you know, like I had to design it, like that's actually only the 10% of the brand.
And the brand is everything below the surface. They need to get that up. And that's how you differentiate yourself, you know, because anyone could have a nice logo. Now a dribble exists like I'm working-
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And you're right. And the other thing is with this online world we're in now, to make yourself look a certain way is so easy. So again, and I'm sure you've seen it, but I've seen agency websites where there's literally only one person. And it's like “we, we, we, we, we,” but there's no substance behind it, you know? And it's like, I think because it's so easy for people to put this front on, having the honesty and the reality and the actual physical ‘look, no, this is me.' It's just brilliant. I think that's such a great way of doing it. So just in case people don't really know what we're talking about, let's just quickly tell people what Bonjoro is and what it physically does. So can you explain what the app is?
Okay. Yeah, sure. So, essentially it's a piece- generally we, we plug on to lead software tools, CRMs, customer sources. So things like MailChimp, Patreon, ActiveCampaign, ConvertKit, you name it, it's basically a layer that's assessed on top of that. And what happens is when customers perform a certain action, so at the very simplest, this could be you get a new lead that comes into your form, or a new customer turns into a paying customer, we actually find that customer with a bunch of information into this platform called Bonjoro.
And we send you a notification. We say, look, Jenny just signed up from San Diego. She works at, you know, Dog Socks “R” Us. Yeah. You know, why don't you send her a video right now and just say welcome on board. By the way, she also hasn't done this step in your funnel. She hasn't filled out this form. So why don't you ask her to go fill out the form as well. And then what happens is that notification, you open it on desktop, or on your phone, you record a message for journey at Dog Socks “R” Us. You talk about a bit about San Diego, and then you send that message off, and you get back to work. It takes about 30 seconds to a minute.
It does all the move for you. We package it up, it's all branded. It has what we call to actions. It has a link for her to go in and do that one thing you want her to do. That's get off, gets delivered to her inbox. She gets a little moving image in there. She clicks, opens it up, see's this video of you. She can respond and talk to you and start a conversation there. So that's it in a nutshell, it's a little bit more complex behind the scenes.
I could imagine.
But yeah, essentially that's it.
And it works.
And that's the thing, right? That is the best thing of all. It's almost so simple from our points of view anyway, which is what you want from a user experience point of view. You don't want us to be sat there thinking, “God, this is long and enduring and difficult.” So I was using it with Infusionsoft, and I was using it every time someone bought something. Which is interesting 'cause there are different ways aren't there? So obviously you gave an example of a funnel when the leads came on, and I used it on a sales, and it can be used for both, which is brilliant, but I used it when someone boards, and I just sent them a really quick video. And like you said, it was easy, pinged on my phone. And actually it was quite exciting because every time that went off it's like, ‘hey, someones just bought something.”
And then you're like, genuinely, I'm very excitable anyway, but you know, record yourself at this really short, really easy, really quick video. But like you said, you know something about them and then you could say, Oh, this is great, this is going to be really good. Make sure you go check out this thing or make sure you do this thing or you know, please come back and tell me if you need anything. And the responses. And that- I remember when my very good friend, BizPaul from Market Live and you guys, yeah, and you guys sponsor Market Live, and I remember the first time he introduced me to Bonjoro and he sent me one and I was like, this is phenomenal. And he said to me that his open rate and his click rates, were massive compared to at standard email. And it's like, why wouldn't it be because of the fact that I've sent you a video, I've said your name. And it couldn't be more authentic if it tried could it.
So for me, I think, like I said, there's a couple of ways of using it. I'm interested to get any more takes you've gotten it. But one as a funnel, part of the funnel to bring them on into a customer. And then also once they are a customer, because this is where this really resonated at Market Live this year, I was keynoting and your team are obviously there and they heard me do my keynote and I talked about getting fans and how this is so crucial because everyone's always really keen to get people on their email list. They're really keen to do them into sale. And then it's like most businesses just go, “yeah, and done, let's find some more people to put into our funnel.” And it's like, no, love those people. And for me this was a perfect tool in terms of becoming that, you know, creating that kind of bond in terms of turning them into a fan.
Turning people into customers
But let's go back to the kind of prospecting points of view. What examples of using in the business of people using the tool in order to turn them into a customer?
Yeah, so there's kind of three areas where we generally get used. And then there's educators here and there, you know there's no kind of structure. The first one is we leads, so I wouldn't say prospecting, that's probably one word. When there is a second touch point. So I would not stress using this kind of thing as a cold outreach. And what we found is if you do something- and it's actually better at cold outreach, however, cold outreach is a numbers game, like hands down however you do it. So if you had sent a hundred to get lead on these, take you 30 seconds to a minute each.
Well, maybe not quite worth the time. When you've got someone coming in and their second step you're going to get a much better conversion rate anyway.
Now if we get you two to three times the conversion rate you normally gets, it's super impactful, you know, whereas maybe if we get you three leads instead of one out of a hundred again, just [inaudible 00:17:54]. Like you do have to investment time. So leads the point here is what you're doing is masters. You're not just sending them off for the hell of it. And we'll talk about super fans I think maybe after, cause that's probably a little bit more complex. But what we leads do is to get a customer to engage with you in order to take the next step in your funnel and you're looking to be more successful at that. Then the systems you're using already.
So with leads, obviously a lead comes in, you know, different numbers, different businesses, maybe 40% engaged, maybe 60% aren't, 'cause a lot of people can't window shop and stuff. How do you get some of that 60% to come over and go, “actually, I'm going to take a second look at this.” And the 40% that are engaged, how do you make sure that when they come in they go, “I'm going to take a really good look at this.” So, when you send these you have a specific ask in the message. So you know, it's a great example is actually us- we use our own products. You know, like we always did. So we have leads that come in and we're a software company. You have a lot of leads and a lot of people shopping around. Now we want those people who come in to- if they get stuck like talk to us, you know our product is not perfect. Like some people get confused. Of course, they are. Yeah.
And we're like, “look, we're here, we'll help you. We're in the UK and around the world. Just have a chat with us. We're pretty fun. We'll help you out.” So we'll say messages out and leads. We were pretty much saying that, but we're looking at what they've done in the product and we're saying, “oh well they haven't, they've done this and this. But they haven't done this, so we're going to ask them to go and do C.” Whereas a different customer may not have done ‘B' and we'll ask them to do that. We'll direct them to the most important step that we know is going to drive them to become an eventual customer. We also, I mean there's also like, so the super fans thing does start here. Like you are surprised them and they're going, well these people seem like they actually care.
That's the start of the conversation. Yeah. So again, first impressions, you get one chance. The first, I think it's a pretty interesting question to start with.
Yeah, it is. And also it's interesting because like you said, and like we've talked about, I know I've talked about a million times on the podcast is there are a million of me, there are a million of everybody, you know what I mean? As in doing what I do. So you know, type in marketing podcast onto Apple, iTunes, whatever, you're going to find a lot of them. And the only thing that makes me or my products and service and my offering different, is me. Is me, is myself and how I am and how I come across and that sort of thing. And strangely enough I did, is there any Enneagram, no it's not Enneagram. I think it is Enneagram like this, this test that you do that basically is a personal development thing and it tells you the type of person you are.
I will link to it in the show notes cause I can't remember. It's called, I think it's Enneagram. Anyway, it told me the person that I am is someone that likes seeing people and communicates with other people and then it goes on to say a bit more and it said, and if you're going to sell, you sell in person or you sell from stage and you sell you know, basically as much as in person as possible. So for me, because I know- or doing that, it kind of confirmed my suspicion that I do like seeing people. I loved doing the video thing. I love doing the podcast. Obviously, I like talking, but the fact is it could show the real me and, and I'm a very honest person. So the person you get on the podcast on stage, if you meet me, is exactly the same.
So for me it was just a perfect way to go, “hey look, you know, I am sat in my office or I'm over here, I'm doing this, I'm doing that. And I wanted to say thank you and I wanted to take that time.” So that's why this whole kind of personal connection stuff I think is really, really key. And I think especially if you're trying to build you as a brand, which is odd because obviously you guys aren't building a brand person brand, you're building a company brand, but it still works lovely because you get someone and I know their face and their name now and it's like, 'cause they sent me Bonjoro's and I can see them and it's so different isn't it? It's just perfect, perfect for that kind of process.
Well, I mean I, I'm a big fan of branding, I kind of run an ad-brand at the company. Yeah.
And it's, say if you've started to build a company brand, well I actually don't like the idea of tying company brand to one person. And that some companies do this and so it can be very effective. When you start to grow a team and getting bigger and bigger, and at the end of the day, if I get hit by bus, like I want the company to keep going.
Yeah, of course.
I want the culture to keep going and you know, if I come out or if I'm busy, whatever else. Yeah. The brand as a company is much more powerful than I could ever be. I see. Okay. However, what that means is that we have a culture, we have a very strong culture and we focus on it and we hire for it. And therefore if you meet anyone from Bonjoro, I can guarantee you, you'll get it a fairly similar experience. You'll get very honest, very open people, we'll pretty much tell you anything, yeah. Like you asking any question, we'll give you the answer. We'll always joke around the bits, you know, have some fun. Yeah. Customers will take time. Yeah, we miss our faults. And we'll wear our best suits.
Yes, which is-
It's kind of silly, but like it can't- That's who we are. So I think when you build a brand- like a lot of companies decide on culture later on like, “oh this is our culture.” Now as a founder and as the person driving it, you will have a massive influence if you have a couple of founders, your early team will have a huge influence. My advice for anyone starting a company is, you know, don't do it the first day. But as you start to get going, maybe like really start thinking about your values and what it is you want to stand for, before you really start to grow your team. Because it will affect who you hire. And if you understand your values better, you should be able to vet people for those values and you should be able to make better hires.
That's such a good point as well because I totally agree. Businesses that are built a bigger businesses. Other- obviously I am my business. But if you're building a business or it doesn't have to be one single person and obviously you don't want it to focus on that one. You do want to share it out, however without understanding that key like that core personality of the business, you can't bring on those right people and therefore you wouldn't be able to allow your team to go and put their face to your business. Because even though they're not the face, you know, if someone's sending a Bonjoro and they're not your personality and they're not the type of person, they're not coming across. Right. That's obviously really detrimental. So I think there's a lot of people out there that will listen, that would think, “oh well, I'd have to do that. I couldn't let my team do that,” because you know, then they won't be the right person to do. And maybe that says more about who they're hiring than- and the fact that they might have to do it.
It's funny, I said I like, so when we tend to talk some to big businesses, this comes up more. I think small business, we do attract a certain type of customer. At the end of the day, if you're going to use us you're probably a already a good actor or already a weak actor anyway.
Like it's very honest, it's very transparent that you have to do here.
And big businesses are like, “oh, but you know, we'd have to train up the team out of the house.” I'm kind of like, like just trust them. People aren't going to wreck your reputation's and your videos to clients. And if they are, probably the wrong people you've hired then.
Exactly. They're not the right people for your business.
Or you have a cultural issue. In which case, we're not the right solution for you anyway. So hide behind your kind of walls and your emails.
I can tell you that way if you want to. I think there's a general shift in how businesses are like to customers. I think there's a lot more transparency now. I only think that will increase quite a lot of customer backlash against a more- is it a [inaudible 00:25:35] kind of company, where they hid it away. As you get onto Facebook and everything else. Some companies- As you get bigger, the [inaudible 00:25:42] is, you get bigger. It is much harder. And so, certain difficulties are there, but if you start from the seed being transparent, pulling down those walls, trusting your team, you may get burnt a few times, but hey, if you get burnt when you're smaller, it's not the end of the world.
No. And that's the time to do it, isn't it? And also with something like this, and anything where you're trying to create that personal relationship with a customer, like I said, some businesses are going to be easy because if you're an agency that deals with big clients, you only need, I don't know, a handful. But if you are like, I want to get to the point where my membership is, you know, well the membership guys, Mike and Kelly, I don't, if you do those guys, they have three and a half thousand people in their membership. And I still want to be doing the personal stuff when it's that big. So for me, you've either got to work out where your priorities lie and whether that's something you're gonna invest your time in, or you've got to trust other people to do it or find another way.
Creating ‘superfans’ for your business
And like you said, if you can't trust the team that you're working with, then maybe the right team for you because you should be able to happily go, can you speak to this customer and do this thing? So, and I, and like I said, every, I've had a few Bonjoro's now from different team members of yours for different reasons. And they've all been their own personality. They're not like cardboard cut outs, but it's still lovely and it's still, you can just feel that ethos coming through. So, so let's talk quickly then about super fans and turning them into those fans. Because like I said, I saw this, I have how they used it for- Oh, that's part of the lead process. I haven't yet, but it's on one of my processes to use. I've used it mainly as a supporting after they've bought and loving them. So, what's your thoughts around the super fan thing and trying to really make them love you once they bought where people normally go, thanks and then move on to the next person.
Yeah, it's almost got two steps. I think the first step is what we call tech [inaudible 00:27:45] call retention. So what this says, what kind of activation- is that there's a lot of, or when you first get customers on board, my, my attitude is that you should invest in them more at that point. So more than that actually would lead. So I think the first three months of a valued customer is absolutely key. The first project you learn about is absolutely key until you stand up the second one. So yeah, let's say you're an agency, you bring home your client, you deliver excellence in the first go, you have to then repeat that on the second go. Only at that point I would count them as like a true customer and they can't, it's like going. So that takes more investment than it does do pitch with us.
We have leads coming in. Yeah, we help them. But we have a lot of numbers. Once they come on board as a customer with then make sure that they're getting value out of products. So you know, we'll do one on one train with them. We'll check it in after a few weeks. We'll make sure, if they've not gained there, we'll help them to get that or if it's not right for them, we're like, okay look, I'll ask it, it doesn't seem to work for your process, what are you going to try this other thing instead. So super fan starts that, but it's, we can approach it from more like a mindset of like activation, make sure that our customer is activated. Now if you do that, you ultimately starts to build up this kind of trust with them anyway.
Now to get to true super-fan status is your kind of Britney Spears kind of fans, but for business. I've got a really good example, we have a guy called Tim who runs a YMCA camp in the States, and Tim is the perfect super fan, he's amazing, uses the platform. I would hire the guy tomorrow. Yeah, he's one of us. He's also super active. He talks all the time on our community. He helps on new members out and for us as a business, it is so powerful and we can't stop him yet. Like, you know, he loves it, we send him bear suits.
But we've- he wasn't there in the first few months, but since then we've kept engaging with him and he's reached out. We pushed back. I've reached back. And so we have a process of how we engage with after three months and he comes in. So yeah, we have personal team called Amy who's our chief [inaudible 00:29:54] officer and who has a big personality. So we've chosen someone who's got a huge personality to kind of run that process. As much I would love to, I'm jumping around a lot of different roles. Her sole job is to make sure that people kind of get to the stage. So post activation, you then almost pick up the ones that you see who engage with you more and more. And with us, if they gave her the Bonjoro, we know that they kind of like the game there. I'll use it almost as though as a kind of a filter.
We then we'll double down on those individuals. We'll try to bring other individuals in, but some people that are naturally stand out. If they stand out, there's really a hanging fruit, go to those people, do things unexpected for them. So we did a lot of stuff around the lights. We'll send them hand written postcards or something. We'll send then bear suits. That's obviously on brand to us. So pick things on brand to you. Look at competitors and go, what wouldn't they do?
Yeah, what would they all do? We're thinking that we have this amazing illustrator and we use all our designs and we're like, maybe we should get her to do illustrations of our customers for them.
Oh my God, that'd be ace.
And she's awesome and I'm like nothing to do with us. Yeah. Just illustrate their brands or maybe they have, they like brands with like a bear hug or something fun. Yeah. That they can then go and use.
It's not so much about us, it's more about them. But I know if we do it, you know that they're going to talk about it. They're gonna love it and they're going to go, this is silly, this is crazy. Yeah. And the result of this is if you do this kind of things, you have customers who are like, look, you're still not quite where I want the product to be. I'm going to keep paying you because you guys have to exceed. When customers tell you that, you know, or listeners tell you that, that's how you know, you've kind of hit it. People bank in you because they believe in you. They want you to get there. You know, you are helping them. But they'll go and tell a super fan is worth a hundred new customers.
Oh, for sure. For sure. And not only from a promotion of you, which is amazing and your products, your service or whatever it might be. But also from, I have to say actually from a- being that person on the receiving end, I remember when I opened one of, I think it was either my online course or my Academy, and one of the people who bought into it who had been following me and engaging with me for some time and obviously I always engage back. She actually put in there saying how lucky are we to get Teresa at this price right now because she is going to be like way out there soon.
And I was just like, “oh my God that it's amazing that you would say that.” And then the other thing that I love that you just said, and I think so many people don't think about this, is those added extras is those little things that don't have to cost the earth. And that's why Bonjoro is so great because it doesn't have to cost the earth, it doesn't take too much time and it can look so personal. So good. But like right behind me, you can see a cup there and it's from the guys that response we, and it's a system for surveys.
Obviously it has nothing to do with cartoons, but when they get you go on their podcast, they do a cartoon of everybody. And they gave me a cup with my face on it and it's like, “yeah, that's amazing.” You know?
So like I know it seems like a silly or frivolous thing or I don't know what, but the point is- with just trying to find ways to stand out, we're trying to find ways to go not only look here we are. But also I honestly really care and I honestly, you know, want to make that extra effort and go the extra mile because I am so invested in the people who are willing to invest in me.
Real life Bonjoro examples
So there's one thing I'm using Bonjoro for that's coming up soon. So in my Academy we're doing a quarter four challenge. So I've invited all the members to basically set some goals and targets and we're going to try and like smash their calls for and make sure they do have a great end to the year. I've already decided and by the time this comes I had done it so that's fine. I've already decided that the people who have opted in to the challenge are going to get a free call with me, which obviously isn't normally part of the membership, but I really want them to do well in this last quarter cause obviously that intern says stuff about me and my Academy and so I'm going to basically give them a free call, one to one with me, which isn't normal, something a bit different.
But also I'm going to do the Bonjoro where I send them up on Bonjoro saying, “hey, are you getting on? Do you want to book a free call with me?” And again, that part of my community, they pay me money every month. But isn't it crazy that people, they don't put the effort in for those, they put the effort in for the people who haven't even paid them a single thing yet. Whereas my idea is the retention, cause again, especially a subscription based service like you like me two very different but all the same. They're paying monthly, it is about how can you retain them when sometimes they're looking at it and I don't know about you but I do it fairly often where I look at all my subscriptions and go, “do I really need that. Am I really making the most out of that? Should I really be spending money there?”
So I think to do those kind of extra things, those people who do love you, or who have taken a risk, or of actually handed over some money I think is so much more important than necessarily putting all that effort and just trying to get those people.
And you can send [inaudible 00:35:15], yeah. Like I do 'cause I talked about it. ‘Do I really believe this here, do I live with this?' I actually wrote a bit of a post like a while ago, something like you're not good enough. And it was like, I vetted in all of our suppliers, so it's pretty brief. Or like we have a lot of subscriptions. We probably have like a hundred different tools over the LCR and then we have accountants and we have like services as well. Yeah. I went through all of them and I was like, “how many of these would I care if we didn't work with them anymore?” And there was like three. So yeah, like a hundred. And it kinda hit me and I was like, “wow”. Most of these, some of them have great products. I'm like, “look, the products good.” But the reality is somebody could convince me to move away.
And there's a very few things where people could not convince me move away. Even if it had a slightly better product and it's the whole year, to move away, things have to be like 10 times better. It's feelings that like, honestly it would have to 20 times better for me to move away because that's seems vast to me, they've backed to me, if I need to talk to them. They will be there, they will help us. Very, very few. Especially like software companies do this. And when I say what's up, it comes like traditional, like we are bad at this. So I look at that and I'm like, that is so like if you want the people that were the ones to do this, like those that are thinking everyone's going to do this because they just aren't yet. It's like, okay, is everyone good at Twitter? No. There's very few, very few people who are great at Twitter, for certain things. And there are certain people who are great at Instagram, most people aren't.
If I look at this, I go, are there have you are going to be great and make you super fans, 1% yeah, maybe. Yeah. And it takes conscious thought, it won't just happen by magic. And so it's so interesting and yet- you don't get any stats about retention versus new leads. And I mean it's something like between like seven and 20 times cheaper to get an extra pound or an extra dollar for an existing customer than it is from a new customer. And so I look at that, and again, we all love new things. We love new customers. But the most successful companies in the world, most of that revenue growth comes from existing customers paying more money.
Yeah, and that's the business argument. Yeah. Like debit bits.
And that's the thing. And like you said, so many people won't invest that. And when I think about how I found out about you guys is through BizPaul, because he told me and then sent me a Bonjoro and I do the same. It was so funny though. I'd just mentioned that I've been in California, I've just come back and I'm sat at a table, James Wedmore, I was at one of his events and in his next level group. And there's all these really pretty amazing business people in that room. And yeah, sat round at this table. And it's funny 'cause you get into your own world and you think you forget there's a bigger world out there.
And cause I know Bonjoro from the UK, from Market Live and because my friend loves Bonjoro and I'm sat there and they're talking about different things and you had to do a little mastermind session and we were talking about how to make things personal. And someone was saying that she wanted to turn some existing customers into a mastermind customer, say she wanted to sell them a higher product. And I was like, I'd reach out personally to those people and do it personally. And someone said, “oh yeah, there's the app. What is it?” And then they thought and they're like, “oh Bonjoro.” I was like, no way man, that is brilliant. They know Bonjoro, as if obviously it existed only in Nottingham in the UK. Which obviously it doesn't, but you know, that's the kind of stuff I just love about people will talk about your products and services. People will go, “this is amazing, use this, have you tried this?”
And also the great thing about your product services, when I'm sending Bonjoro's, people are instantly like, what is this? And the fact that they can see what it is and they can then, you know, discover that for themselves. So for me, I think putting that time and effort into those people, sending them little different unique things. At the moment, my office is a mess with samples of products that I am getting for the Academy and to send to members, again, not prospects, you know, it's like I'm going to invest that money back to them. So I love the idea of sending a bear suit, like swag is just amazing, especially the really good and unique and different stuff. Cause again, what do you do? The cup arrives. I'm on Instagram. Look at this. This is amazing.
Unique's the key. I think the swag, if you're going to do swag, don't go traditional.
I think it's gotta be unique. It's gotta come from the heart. It's like buying gifts for family or buying gifts for a loved one, you know, you can go on the ‘gifts for her', a buy one and you know, it's a bit of lazy effort or you can think, yeah. If 10 minutes about what that person really, really enjoys, what they really love. It's not a lot of time. And you could do something where they open it and they could go like, wow.
This is awesome.
And that's not expensive. Yeah. Actually writing a letter and posting it would have more impact than spending $100 buying a case of wine, because anyone could buy a case of wine. So it's about the personal. What is the most valuable thing in the world? It's time. Like I truly believe especially toady where we know where like we get good job, we can do everything else, yet time is one thing you'll never get back. So if you invest time in your customers and they can see that. So if you write them a letter and they go, this must taken at least 10 minutes to write your note. And they've done it with a real pen like on paper.
From hand. That versus going online buying a bunch of muffins and sending it to someone. It's going to be much more appreciated for most customers.
I think so.
Yeah. And like you said, it's the difference between just buying something for the sake of buying it and actually going, they're gonna like this, they're going to really appreciate this or this is going to really hit home with them and doing something. So one of the things I'm doing is I am looking at some fairly traditional stuff, but I'm looking at some really beautiful notebooks and things because again, the people I'm talking to, I know they'd like that. And instead of like shoving my brand on the notebook as a marketing ploy. I'm actually looking at like, is there a nice inspirational quote or is there something- so that they want to take that note with them and they want to actually use it. Not because it's got some massive branding. Cause again, I've got millions of them. You know, I've been to lots of places, lots of events. I speak at lots of events and you get lots of swag and sometimes just like, yeah, you know, and it's not that you're being ungrateful-
Yeah, unfortunately most of the time, you know, it's not that you're being ungrateful, but it's like, do you know what? I've got a million of them and I have them- Do you know ‘think a think' the online course.
Yeah. So they sent me a hoodie, right. So BizPaul actually messaged me, he's getting all these mentions today, he actually messaged me, voice messaged on Instagram, that's how we speak to each other and he's like, I never thought I'd see the day that you wore a hoodie. ‘Cause that is not my style. But I have to say it was like a revelation. And it's the nicest hoodie that I've ever had. And it was like, do you know what? This wasn't cheap. But the fact is I couldn't stop going on about it cause I was like, A, I've never worn a hoodie before. And B, I love this and it's so nice and it's this. But again, it's just that extra kind of either go to that bit more of an effort and spend a bit more money or think right outside the box and just do something completely personal.
And again, sat on my desk next to me actually I have cards that I hand write every time someone joins the Academy to thank them for joining the Academy. So they get them on Bonjoro, they get the card and the card will arrive weeks later probably. And so the Bonjoro strives away, weeks later they get a card. It's all these kinds of touch points that you keep petting them with to say, I really appreciate you and I really appreciate the fact that you've spent money with me and you're a customer and you know, and that you've put your faith in me. So I, I just think it's brilliant.
I mean, I mean say to take BizPaul- I've give one more shout out, because why not? So I was back in UK the summer and I was like, I'm going to go see BizPaul. So I left at like five 'cause he starts quite early. So I left at 5:00 AM, drove through traffic for two hours, turned up, I was a bit under the weather, so I was like, excuse me if I'm being flat. We just kind of sat there and had a coffee, had a chat for like an hour and then [inaudible 00:43:43]. So I think there's nothing, which is like turning up on someone's doorstep.
So I have no doubt when I'm back I'm going to catch up with you for a coffee or drink.
For sure. You have no excuse because we're literally minutes from where you are.
Are bold gestures key?
So its closer, so it's much easier. But again, we did the same mistakes. So we've thought like, right, like at what point can we hire a [inaudible 00:44:02] and drive around the States and go and see like some of our most fun customers. Absolutely nothing to do with size or with revenue. Let's just plot a trip, and this is what's going to happen here. We'll just pretend- honestly it'll just be a fun trip.
But I can tell you that actually, you know, if I had to like just buy it for business for like the business ROI perspective, I can tell you that we'll make money off it. Yeah. ‘Cause if it took us a month, even if we then ended up, you know, with 10 X dimensions off all those customers. Do a bit of content around it. And we had a great time while we were doing it, then lots of people we'll talk about stuff. I was like, “oh imagine if you could do this, imagine if you could do that.” It's like well just go and do it.
Get on the plane, do the things.
And you know what's really funny today, an episode has come out of someone else's podcast that I was interviewed on, and one of the first questions they asked me was, how did I get Pat Flynn and Amy Porterfield as back to back guests as my first two guests on the podcast? And I said, I got on a plane and I flew five and a half thousand miles and took them for a coffee. Like I literally DM'd – I was lucky I'd met Pat, him and I spoke on the same stage, and I'd met him a couple of times so he at least knew my name and my face. But I literally just sent him a video DM, which obviously I can do through Instagram but I'm sure it works perfectly. And I sent him this video DM and I said, “hey Pat, you said that the way to build relationships is take someone for a coffee, well that's fine, but I live five and a half thousand miles away. Pat I'm flying out to take you for a coffee. Will you meet me?” And bless him, how could he say no?
And he didn't, and I did the same thing with Amy Porterfield, and she said yes too. And both of them during that coffee, I thought to myself if it goes well, which I suspected it would because I had met them vaguely and I thought I think we're going to get on. And I thought if it goes well, when I go back to UK, I'll ask them to come on the podcast. ‘Cause I didn't want them to think I'd got this agenda of literally making them say yes in front of me. So anyway I thought I wasn't even gonna ask and they said, “how's the podcast going.” And I was doing solo episodes. And they said, “oh who you gonna interview.” And I said, “I am, but I don't want to yet.” Or, “I'm a bit nervous about asking people what if they say no.”
And both of them, and I met them separately, and almost the [inaudible 00:46:13], they said, “well if I'm on your list, I'll come.” And its like oh my actual god, I didn't even ask them.
But that was because I flipping flew five and a half thousand miles to California at a time where that wasn't a conference, because often people want to meet them when there's a conference-
Because everyone's there. And I said, “meeting you two and having this relationship with you two is that important that I'll do that.” So again, its about taking that extra step and moving that extra mile and it doesn't always have to come down to flying across the world. But just doing something that's like, “do you know what, that's awesome.” I was talking to…oh sorry go on.
Sorry, I was just gonna say, in terms of returning the [inaudible 00:46:58] for that, definitely think about it in two ways. And one is like will it help my business, and the other side is personal.
But also in return, you're very like me. So we kind of like two peas in a pod. I love this stuff, I enjoy it. When people like me, it makes me feel good. I'm like, we're doing something here that matters.
Don't build a business for the sake of making money, like that's my advice. The money comes afterwards. Do it because you enjoy it and because you love it. This is the stuff that's really fun and when you meet [inaudible 00:47:29]. Then its like those are exciting trips, they're great stories, you build these relationships that will last for years. And it's satisfying. That in its self, outside everything else, will make you enjoy business and therefore your business will do better because you're enjoying it every day.
Absolutely. And like you said, I love what I do, and you obviously love what you do. But for me, there was no money that was going to be earned, there was no customer, I wasn't going to pitch, I wasn't going to get anything from them, other than if I can start to build a relationship from it, then maybe I'll ask you to come on the podcast, and maybe you'll say yes. But that for me was enough. And then they both came on, back to back, and then of course as a brand new podcast or brand new to having guests, the minute you say, I've had Pat and Amy on, well I've had about two people bump me or not say yes, or not quite round to saying yes. Literally everybody I've ever asked has gone, “yeah absolutely Teresa”, and I had Michael Hier on last week, I've had amazing guests on and its because I'd spent all that time and effort at that point and it paid dividend. They can make me money, but that wasn't the purpose of it.
Well it did eventually.
Yeah, exactly it'll all come to it. Because, I'm seem much more credible because I'm mixing with the likes of Pat and Amy, and Michael Hier and all that sort of thing. So like you said it all goes into that mix to be good and positive.
And for different reasons. There's things like the numbers games, so we had Pat like first of all as a customer- because I had no idea who Pat was, and we're here in Australia and in the UK, less known as well. And this guy called Pat signs up, and I think I sent him a message, ‘welcome aboard, Bonjoro.” Blah, blah, blah. Like as we do to all customers, and then he paid and he became a customer and then one day we had this all these customers coming on. People were like, “oh yeah Pat's talking about you on stage,” Who the hell is this Pat dude? And people are like, “are you serious?” And there like, “Its Pat Flynn,” I'm like, “don't know.”
So we end up getting in touch with him and talking to him and we just treat him like every other customer. But again because we do that to everyone, we strike gold sometimes. Since then, we've gone to sponsor cars for his kids, and we sent his kids bear suits for Halloween and we've been doing this podcast and stuff. But, I can say in all that, he was like, “you guys are like this with everyone?” And I was like, “sorry didn't know who you were.” And kind of loved it, he was like, “refreshing.”
No, that's brilliant.
But if you do these things again and again, they're a part of your process and their part of your ethos. It might take you one hundred to get one gold, but you're not thinking I'm doing one hundred to get one gold.
You're thinking I'm going to do one hundred because it's the right thing to do, and trust me, people will see that and say, “you guys are genuine.”
And then they'll pick you up and run with you and then five years later, you won't even be able to put your finger on where it all started.
No. Because as you said, if its just you, and if that's how you are, which it should be. Because obviously we know there are some customers we know who will make us more money, and then there are some customers that are better fit or whatever. And as you said, having Pat Flynn on board for you, and especially with- I've been very lucky to see Pat talk quite a few times now and what he talks about is bang on the money for you as a product. Because he's literally written a book called super fans.
Are you a super fan.
So there we go? But like you said, the fact that it wasn't like you only did it because it was Pat Flynn, the fact was that you would do that to everybody just proves how genuine and how this isn't a play. Anybody who's thinking about all these things as a, “its trick and a tool and tactic.” No it's not. Do you know what, I'd send anybody any of these things and if one of my members turns around and says, “do you know what I can't afford it, or this isn't right for me, or this isn't whatever,” it doesn't mean that I'm like, “oh right yeah you're out of here now.”
I'd still put the same love and care to the point they'll go and help however they can go forward. I think loving what you're doing and caring for what you're doing has got to be critical. You could have all the best tools in the world, you can come up with the most inventive giveaways and fancy things, but if its not real behind it, it's never going to work. Or you're going to get found out at some point.
Yeah don't be- so Olly, who's our UK team, who you know.
He ran some growth hacking, he's the head of marketing. He's like I [inaudible 00:52:01] a good hacking. So much of it is bs, excuse my language, and the problem is, so many people are trying to do growth hacking and 19 out of 20 experiments of get any results. And they think its shortcuts, if you're a new business starting up, and all your doing is those, you have a fine time before you decide to pack the business in. Like most business do fail. It's a tough game. Any [inaudible 00:52:26] plus I'm not going to make it. So if you're wasting time to be told to do these things. It's actually quite indigenous of people who are speaking about it. The ones who make it like the packs, [inaudible 00:52:37] makes it because he does the right thing everyday single day. [inaudible 00:52:41] sends Bonjoro, most people would be like, “oh I don't have time for Bonjoro.” I'm pretty sure if [inaudible 00:52:45] does it, he does it in his kitchen with his kids.
If he can do it, he's doing the same thing every day, he's doing things because they're the right thing to do. He does this podcast weekly, he repeats things and doesn't ever give up. Very consistent, there's not shortcuts here. But its consistency over 5 years and if that's what works, I think on Olly's behalf don't get blindsided by these growth hacks and these shortcuts. Yes strive for stuff, but what you're trying to do is find something for you. The stuff that is mundane that you repeat every single day and consistently do, like just telling customers you care, every single day. That's actually the stuff that works, it does take time, give it 6 months. It starts to snowball.
And you're right, people do want to find- and I see this all the time obviously doing marketing and social media and talking a lot about funnels and sales pages and landing pages, and all that's great stuff. But the point is people do things and expect there to be some quick win, and the minute I get on stage, or the minute I stand in front of someone, or the minute I consult people and go, “there isn't, you've just got to do this over and over…” Literally you can see the look in their face like [inaudible 00:54:01]. And it's like if there really was a way, I would be doing it.
Everybody would be doing it, but there isn't. And the people who make out, “look at where they are,” they don't look at the journey they ran up to, they don't look at- one thing I like to talk about is lets take some Jasmine Star who is huge on Instagram, she's got- I don't know 270,000 followers or something. Huge, huge account. But she's done something like 5 thousand posts, so she has consistently posted for about 8 years. And she was posting when no-one was paying attention. But she just did it every day, every day, every day. And then suddenly people started to get it. Its so funny you say about Pat sending the Bonjoro, and people's saying, “oh I haven't got time for that.”
Jasmine replies to all her DM's, so like I said she is massive. She was sat on stage at social media marketing world and someone got on the questions like, “Oh but Jasmine I've got…” and I think it was like 100 thousand, and like I said Jasmine's might even be way more than what I've said. Jasmine's was way more, and “oh I don't know I might have to get a VA to reply.” And Jasmine was like, “I highly recommend that you reply if you're the brand, then I would say really it needs to be your voice.” “Well I haven't got time for that.” And she said, “well what do you do?” She said, “I reply.” And she's like, “yeah but how do you do it?” She's like, “I just reply, I outsource things that aren't important. So I'll outsource my accounts, or something that doesn't matter. But that matters so therefore I just do it.”
And I DM'd her a few weeks back, and she's been on the podcast as well, and she is amazing. And I DM'd her a few weeks back, and she posted something, and I was like, “do you know what Jasmine, I just want to say you're really awesome, you're really good and I'm really inspired by you, and I love the way you are, and I love your drive, and I love this…” And she came back, and was like, “oh my god girl this is amazing.” And she knew who I was, and it was evident that it was her and evident that it was her replying. And its like you said, sometimes its just these things are just worth the effort. You've just got to put it in haven't you?
So we have a thing we say internally, I'm quite proud of…it's the only time I'll say it, but we always say, ‘automate processes but never relationships.'
And the way we see it, processes are amazing, do camp, do it all that yeah. But the whole point of it is to free up your time. So the reason we promoted it into my business we try and process everything yeah, from our product, food to our [inaudible 00:56:34] and everything, we put it in so we that we have more time to invest in what's important. And a big part of what we do, this is important yeah, the customer's stuff that face to face stuff that I cannot automate is actually important stuff. So [inaudible 00:56:47] we'll look at our products and go look, “really the important bit is the face to face, why don't we automate all the kind of branding and delivery and everything else, you don't have to think about it yeah.” But that's 30 seconds is the bit that you need to invest. So, Pat invests those- and Jasmine invest that time. We'll make the rest of it, don't automate the human part, like it's the last thing you should do.
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Do you know what that is a perfect place to finish. Thank you so much Matt, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on. Obviously in the show notes I will hook up to everything to do with you guys, I am a huge, huge fan. Which is why I wanted you on because anything that cuts through some of that marketing rubbish, is wonderful in my books. So thank you much Matt, its been an absolute pleasure to have you on.
Thanks so much as well.
What'd you think? Did you enjoy that? I think he's such a nice guy. Really did enjoy what we were talking about. And I like businesses that go the extra mile. I also like working with companies when I like them, that's a big thing. Even though they might be a tech company, or a SAS company, whatever. Actually if I can feel that the people are nice and they have a really nice culture about them, then for me they've got my custom all day long. And also when they look after their customers and their staff. That says a lot about them as owners as well as everything else. So yes I thought it was great. Anyway, I'm going to leave this very short and sweet, because I said tomorrow is a big day, and I need to save this voice.
Obviously by the time you hear this voice, I would have done this talk ages ago. So look out on social media and see how it went.